[DenverTaco07]

someone here surely thinks highly of himself.

really too bad he can't be a tad more polite and maybe...just maybe people may listen to his opinion. He can be right all day, but who really cares when he is such an

edit: the user this referenced has been banned and posts eradicated from this awesome site.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

Go drive the cars yourself or try Google if you want empirical data.

I did and posted articles related. Around 200ms is the time and reason they are just as fast. That's faster than your eye can blink and much better than a human can shift a manual. You can say you prefer a dct or a dct is better for track duty, but you cannot say they are quantitatively faster.

[Capricio]

I could see a DCT being better for track duty from a heat standpoint, but a TC-AT could cope just fine with some additional external cooling. ...and yes, shift times on the new GM ATs are as fast or faster than most of the premium DCTs out there. For stright line racing, smooth shifts in daily use, and integrating jarring stuff like AFM and VVT, where an unlocked fluid buffer is nice to have, they are a good choice.

[DenverTaco07]

Look at me, i'm right and you are wrong so you are an uneducated idiot....

dude...no one cares if you are right...NO ONE!!!!

edit: i shouldn't speak for everyone...but i certainly don't care if you are right.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

When are trolls like you going to realize you are arguing against the entire automotive world and not just one forum member ????

If you have a problem, take it up with Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Bugatti, AMG, Audi, Nissan, and the rest of the world who all run DCT in their top performance cars.

again, you may or may not be right, I don't really care, i didn't make a statement for or against DCT.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

NO. They are NOT.

Okay, fine, whatever... but TC based ATs still serve a purpose and have a place in the world. They can work well enough on the track for most people, are as fast as a DCT and faster than an manual in a straight line, and if you want to live at the track or just don't like them you can get a manual.

I get it that you're pissed off GM didn't make a DCT and AWD that would have added another $10k to the price, but surely you realize you represent a very, very, very small segment of buyers.

If you're THAT serious about a track car, there are better platforms than 3700ish lbs cars with 4 seats. Put an LS with a Tremek in a Miata or something.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

NO. They are NOT.
It's funny that the people that are mindlessly repeating GM's marketing BS are those who have NEVER actually DRIVEN the new A8 back to back with PDK.
I HAVE.
The new A8 is pathetic when manually shifted, it does NOT compete with a DCT, and only those that are uneducated and inexperienced will believe that it can.
If not, why does EVERY supercar run a DCT ?????

Go drive the transmissions yourself or at least take the word of someone who owns both a modern DCT and a A8 Corvette. The A8 does NOT complete with PDK. End of story.

"200 milliseconds is how long the 8HP 8-speed automatic transmission takes to carry out a gear shift - fast and smooth. Even a professional driver can't shift as fast as this. This gives gear shifting that impressively combines driving pleasure, efficiency, and maximum comfort. Direct gear jumps over two or more gears - including the extreme of shifting from eighth to second - are also possible. In conjunction with the intelligent adaptive shift strategies, this guarantees maximum agility and driving fun."

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/pr...enjoyment.html

BMW, Chrysler, Jaguar, Audi, etc... all use it. Don't you think ZF would be sued for false advertising if it wasn't true. I don't think all the manufacturers using their transmission designs would continue to use it if ZF did not live up to their specs.

I own a ZF 8HP equiped car. I have driven VW/Audi DSG equipped cars. There is no difference shifting in sport mode. They both shift amazingly quick and firm. Your mention of "when manually shifted" makes me wonder what car you drove and if it had issues. Commanding a shift via the paddles vs letting the computer shift are quite different. I have heard comments made by reviews of several cars (including the new Mustang) that the paddles are sloppy compared letting the computer shift. Maybe that's why you noticed a difference.

[DenverTaco07]

One thing i can admit I have failed at today and that is:



shame on me

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

Another foolish statement that proves most are clueless about DCT pricing and specs. Entry level Honda and VW products have DCT, and sub $40k cars have AWD+DCT that are capable of running 11's with minimal mods.

I'm not familiar with DCT and AWD cars, they don't interest me, so this is a serious question but how many of those cars are as heavy and as powerful as the SS Camaro? I imagine the weight and costs would increase significantly for the drive trains to handle the stresses of 460 hp/tq on a 3700+ lb car vs the entry level Honda making less than half.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

It's nice to get a response from someone who has actually driven a A8.
Although, you've obviously never driven a PDK because you'd know exactly when I meant when I said a A8 can't compete with a DCT. Even though, most agree that your ZF A8 is the best in the world.

You are correct that the lag of the A8s are worst when manually shifted. DCTs do NOT have this problem, and are still faster than the A8s when left in DRIVE. Frankly, I shake my head at anyone who buys a performance car to leave it in DRIVE all the time.

I rarely use the paddles but I do use Sport all the time. Just like in a DCT, the computer is much better at gear selection and shift points than even an above average driver in 90% of driving circumstances. Prime example:

"The automatic is really easy," Pobst said. "It makes it so easy. Except on the first two laps, it got lazy on the three-four shift coming out of 9. Drove me crazy, but then it went away. It was on full automatic, and it hung on the redline. It just hung there, then it shifted. It felt like forever. I was driving slower on the out lap to protect the tires, so the transmission said, 'Oh, you're not going flat. I'm gonna shift up.' Maybe that's what confused it, but it did it the second lap, too, which was hot. The third lap it didn't do it, though. But maybe that's why. It took the transmission awhile to realize 'I'm at a race track.' It's pretty sweet, other than that. Man, it works great." As Pobst drove the automatic transmission car first, we believe his familiarity with the car and the track ultimately led to the faster lap time for the manual transmission car. Consulting with Chevrolet test driver Jim Mero, we believe the automatic transmission car is capable of equaling the manual transmission car's time were we to send Pobst out for more laps (we were limited on time).

Which transmission would Pobst choose? "Automatic 'cause I have fifth gear," he said. "If I'm at a track where I don't need fifth, I might prefer the manual because I like the level of control."


Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz3Wqh7BBOK

My opinion, which most car review and drivers agree on is that there is little to no difference in performance between a DCT and these newer performance 8 speeds. The cars all shift much faster than a manual or previous "slushboxes". Is there a difference between the PDK and 8L90 in shift time, probably. Will it make a difference in track time, unlikely. 200MS or less isn't going to add up to anything on a track (assuming the A8 doesn't overheat unlike the DCT granted).

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

Sub $40k Golf R and S3, and the $50k Audi S4 run DCT+AWD and are capable of 11's with light mods. Weight and power are variable, but results are similar. I am a GM V8 fan boy. I want to continue to buy Corvettes and Camaros.
I hate rice and owning a German car scares the hell out of me.

The S4 is sweet, but the starting price is like $50k. For the same amount of money, you could build a Camaro that will absolutely embarrass the S4.

As far as the Golf, to make that thing run in the 11s, you need a tune, a high pressure fuel pump, and an exhaust system. That will run you about $3k on top of the $3k that the little 4 banger is more expensive. For that price difference, you start getting close to an FI system for the Camaro. Yet again, game over for the little 4 banger.

If the new Camaro, runs 12.3s off the factory line, a better set of tires will get you in the 11s.

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

All good points. But, the S4 is a better daily driver than the Camaro, especially if you have 4 seasons.
But, if you can buy a Camaro 1SS with a stick for $20k less than a S4, it makes sense, and it's more fun in the summer.

I can agree with both of those points. I live in Naples, FL, so my winter is warmer most people's summers.

[xgnxs]

Originally Posted by ECS C6

It's just a shame GM can't offer a modern performance car with modern components.

Wait for the mid-engined vette / Zora, although it will be no where near the camaro's price point. I doubt it will even be near the current Z06's price point. I don't doubt that it will compete with 918s and Mclarens out there.

With the new GT reportedly costing about $400k, I would expect the Zora to be somewhere in that bracket. Then you'll have your modern performance car with modern components.

[HDRDTD]

I think GM should Hire ECS C6 for their development team leader. Perhaps then they'd heed his advice and design/build proper cars.