Dodge will launch the world's first electric muscle car in 2024

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by 90503

...."Sold out"...for now...sounds good. But once the low-hanging fruit of cheap and convenient electricity, minimal taxation comparable to ICE, and government subsidies and tax credits are gone, the party and hype will be over and very quickly...

ICE will be gone long before EVs are a viable replacement. They will never be produced in large numbers. Sure, there is some technology that will improve EVs, but no getting around the need for "Rare Earth" materials. Promoting a propulsion system dependent on "Rare Earth" minerals, no matter how far you manage to stretch their availability is a finite resource, way more finite than fossil fuels which are being needlessly regulated out of favor to promote EVs.

EVs are "popular" now as a novelty and an alternative, but they won't be able to replace the economy and affordability of ICE transportation in the long run. ICE will be gone, and it won't be long before everyone will wish it was back, especially once electricity becomes the only choice and as overly expensive as the rare earth materials needed for EVs.

But just like the ice there will be vast improvements. We went from the model T to the Ferrari to the 40mpg cars. Computers, tablets and phones replaced the land line, Trapper keepers and the abacus.

It’s not like they’re going to come take your ice car away plus the next generation will gravitate towards the ecars because of the technology, simplicity (no oil changes and practically zero maintenance) as well as the inevitable affordability.

Everything “electric” in our lives are being improved on everyday. Who’s to say the ecar will be any different? It’s naive to think that ecars are not here to stay.

[Envious_Ivy1LE]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

But just like the ice there will be vast improvements. We went from the model T to the Ferrari to the 40mpg cars. Computers, tablets and phones replaced the land line, Trapper keepers and the abacus.

It’s not like they’re going to come take your ice car away plus the next generation will gravitate towards the ecars because of the technology, simplicity (no oil changes and practically zero maintenance) as well as the inevitable affordability.

Everything “electric” in our lives are being improved on everyday. Who’s to say the ecar will be any different? It’s naive to think that ecars are not here to stay.

I'm glad you brought up the zero maintenance thing.. because that's another big factor in considering the longevity of EVs. Right now the fact that engines will inherently have issues or die altogether means there's a market that has no choice but to shop for a new car. Maintenance costs, daily performance and overall liveability also contribute to people buying new cars... what happens when the only thing you need to replace is the battery.. and it lasts 300-500k miles (Tesla claim)

There will be less incentive to buy a new EV. Features and Range are the only two driving factors and I don't see what else they could add to cars to make them more convenient currently. Range could be a while before we see drastic improvements. The big 3 probably won't be sold on EV until they have a clear path to selling them on a revolving basis instead of once per buyer every 30 years (400k miles / 13.5 annual average) . I'm ignoring TESLA in this scenario as they are more similar to an iPhone at this time than a car

[Silveradoss573]

Yet another ignorant idea for the electric lovers lmfao..

https://www.thedrive.com/news/41529/...at-towing-them

[Envious_Ivy1LE]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

Yet another ignorant idea for the electric lovers lmfao..

https://www.thedrive.com/news/41529/...at-towing-them

now introducing ChargEV, brought to you by uber. let some random stranger with a truck tow your electric vehicle so you can get a charge! only $1.50/per mile towed!

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

But just like the ice there will be vast improvements. We went from the model T to the Ferrari to the 40mpg cars. Computers, tablets and phones replaced the land line, Trapper keepers and the abacus.

It’s not like they’re going to come take your ice car away plus the next generation will gravitate towards the ecars because of the technology, simplicity (no oil changes and practically zero maintenance) as well as the inevitable affordability.

Everything “electric” in our lives are being improved on everyday. Who’s to say the ecar will be any different? It’s naive to think that ecars are not here to stay.

I remember the 80's when everyone was cussing all the 'emissions' crap. Then the 90's when everyone was cussing the 'computer crap'. However, now because of all that, we have cars like the Hellcat Redeye with 800hp that you can daily drive without issue.

Face it, the manufacturers are all on board. whether they are blindly leading the pack, or being dragged, kicking and screaming (Dodge).

Personally I thinks it's all B.S. or very short sighted people screaming for this. as mentioned, the power has to come from somewhere. With power grids across the country already being strained, and natural gas all but gone from private homes. Where the hell do they think they going to get more power, without digging for more coal, using more diesel fuel to dig and transport it.

If the Earth's climate is changing, again, as it has before we were here, I seriously doubt A) that we have that much to do with it, and B) that there is damn little, if anything we can do about it.

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

I remember the 80's when everyone was cussing all the 'emissions' crap. Then the 90's when everyone was cussing the 'computer crap'. However, now because of all that, we have cars like the Hellcat Redeye with 800hp that you can daily drive without issue.

Face it, the manufacturers are all on board. whether they are blindly leading the pack, or being dragged, kicking and screaming (Dodge).

Personally I thinks it's all B.S. or very short sighted people screaming for this. as mentioned, the power has to come from somewhere. With power grids across the country already being strained, and natural gas all but gone from private homes. Where the hell do they think they going to get more power, without digging for more coal, using more diesel fuel to dig and transport it.

If the Earth's climate is changing, again, as it has before we were here, I seriously doubt A) that we have that much to do with it, and B) that there is damn little, if anything we can do about it.

My god man! We went from electric cars to the end of the world! Those aren’t easy dots to connect!

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

My god man! We went from electric cars to the end of the world! Those aren’t easy dots to connect!

Well, if you love rumbling V8 muscle cars, electric cars equating to the end of the world isn't that far of a stretch.

[Pupilbone]

Originally Posted by Envious_Ivy1LE

unless those synthetic fuels are dirt cheap and require little to no research, I don't see that being a viable option. Development is the reason the big 3 haven't really dipped into electric before now. Since that's starting to become a non-issue, they'll be looking at that option before anything else.

I don't think the general public cares about, or even really grasps the benefits of, lightweight vehicles. especially those that are EV diehard. so looking into other options just for the purpose of weight savings won't be high on anyone's list

The theme in this thread and these posts is, well, naive. The planets dependency on fossil fuels goes much much further than its use for ICE powered vehicles. We’re talking trillions in economics, and these dollars aren’t going anywhere anytime in the mid to long term future. Ever chowed down on some gummy bears or taken an aspirin? Yeah… fossil fuels had a hand in that.

One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like:

Solvents Diesel fuel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher parts Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Shoelace Aglets
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician’s Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD’s & DVD’s Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

The EV thing is sexy right now, but wait until the naysayers and contrarians latch onto the short term success that brings. They’ll feed on this as quickly as they did the devil ICE. Much more needs to be revealed before our true path forward is laid out. Until then, don’t put all your eggs in any EV power grid dependant basket.

[Envious_Ivy1LE]

Originally Posted by Pupilbone

The theme in this thread and these posts is, well, naive. The planets dependency on fossil fuels goes much much further than its use for ICE powered vehicles. We’re talking trillions in economics, and these dollars aren’t going anywhere anytime in the mid to long term future. Ever chowed down on some gummy bears or taken an aspirin? Yeah… fossil fuels had a hand in that.

don’t put all your eggs in any EV power grid dependant basket.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to allude to. I later called myself willfully ignorant on the subject.. because frankly I don't care one way or another if ICE or EV or something else prevails. I'm sure I'll find something to like about whatever is available for me drive.

But if you're saying ICE vehicles won't go away because of all the other things that depend on fossil fuels, I'd say that's short sighted. Mainly because EV talk seems to be more about ICE emissions and reducing that footprint rather than reliance on fossil fuels.. even if it were about fossil fuels, I'd have to imagine a world where even 50% of transportation is EV is less dependent on fossil fuels than we are now

[Pupilbone]

Originally Posted by Envious_Ivy1LE

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to allude to. I later called myself willfully ignorant on the subject.. because frankly I don't care one way or another if ICE or EV or something else prevails. I'm sure I'll find something to like about whatever is available for me drive.

But if you're saying ICE vehicles won't go away because of all the other things that depend on fossil fuels, I'd say that's short sighted. Mainly because EV talk seems to be more about ICE emissions and reducing that footprint rather than reliance on fossil fuels.. even if it were about fossil fuels, I'd have to imagine a world where even 50% of transportation is EV is less dependent on fossil fuels than we are now

I’m just trying to point out that there’s a larger picture on display. The general public will pay top dollar for whatever they’re told is “best”. What fuels best (pun intended), is driven by dollars. The globes detriment or gain has nothing do with this. Like cattle to the slaughter the public will line up and feel good about paying more for less, especially if they’re told it’s good for the planet.

We can talk about ICE technology being tapped out, but this isn’t the case. Easier dollars for profit just exist right now in the new EV world, regardless of its inability to answer many current ICE efficiencies. Normally I’m quiet on this topic because it rapidly digresses into a political joust. Just don’t think your dollars going this way will do anything but further the decline in our planets resources or North America’s independence.

Fifty or one hundred years from now we’ll still be dependent on fossil fuels, and the public at large will be flocking to whatever it is that’s gonna make the most for the big players who control the board. And trust me, those big players will still be funded and controlled at least in part by the fossil fuel industry.

I’m hoping I’ve got at least another 30 years in me to see how some of this plays out, here’s hoping the Camaro and its forum do as well. This way we’ll both be able to weigh in on who was short sighted or not.

[Rob3D]

I just watched A Quiet Place II. I couldn’t help but to think of this thread and thought to myself I bet Tesla’s got real popular real quick.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

This whole electric fade will be short lived. Just wait and watch...

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Kinda reminds me of the "everything will be diesel" threat 10 or so years ago. And fuel was going to be free 'cuz we were all gonna use French fry grease. That fizzled pretty quick. Pretty sure the VW shenanigans didn't help.

Definitely not short-lived. When you have GM, Ford, and VW each directing a minimum of $25B to development of EV, it’s clear that they are putting their money where their mouths are. You can’t “unspend” that kind of money. Plus development of existing vehicle platforms has slowed to a crawl. Based on the questions some of our clients (Tier I/II/III suppliers to OEMs) are asking, they are seeing significant slow down in development of ICE products and steep increases in requests for development of electrification based components.

Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

Emissions requirements killed that movement, I think, not shifting consumer preferences. Diesel hitting $5/gallon with the ULSD diesel requirement and the perfect storm of supply and economic reality sure didn't help.

A lot of truth here. The brakes got slammed hard on diesel development due to DieselGate. The expense to OEMs and consumers for aftertreatment plus tightening regulations on NOx and particulate emissions combined to shut the door on the diesel transition. Diesel was on its way to being the “performance fuel” before all that stuff hit the wall.

Originally Posted by snizzle

I don't think so this time. Social pressure. Big org virtue signaling. Lobbyist. Political influence. Incentives. Relative build simplicity. Dwindling ICE development. They're coming even if we're not asking for them.

All of these are factors, but I would say the lobbyist / political influence aspects are more at work against EV than in favor of. Thing is the world view (not to be confused with the US view) of climate change and the impact of carbon emissions on the environment have turned the corner. Countries, companies, and 10 states in the US have declared Carbon Neutrality targets. The 10 states in question have set the longest horizon, 2050. The others are in the 2035-2040 timeframe. Carbon Neutrality does not mean that every vehicle needs to be zero emissions, but it does mean that a whole heck of a lot of them will need to be. Soon.

Originally Posted by Hops

I think there's some chance for synthetic fuels could turn the tide, or at least be available for enthusiasts. The current li ion batteries haven't increased much in energy density. I looked up the energy density of a 2008 tesla roadster, and it wasn't much different the the current model 3. Yes the battery price has gone down, but a light EV performance car with good range doesn't seem to exist. I think it will be some time before we get a new battery chemistry that's cheap, and significantly more energy dense.

All the while, strides could be taking with synthetic fuels in scaling and efficiency. These fuels won't compete well when generated with local distributed electricity, but plants located in remote places with an excess of undistributed green energy will be hard to argue with like Porsche's plant in Chile that uses cheap excess wind generated electricity.

The only auto company that is working aggressively on synthetic fuels is Volkswagen Automotive Group, and more specifically Audi. Audi was also working on AudiGas during the spin up of diesel. I’m sure most here have never heard of AudiGas. The rest of VAG is working even more aggressively on electrification. For Audi to spin the industry away from electrification is tantamount to tail wagging elephant. Huge animal, teeny weeny tail.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Definitely not short-lived. When you have GM, Ford, and VW each directing a minimum of $25B to development of EV, it’s clear that they are putting their money where their mouths are. You can’t “unspend” that kind of money. Plus development of existing vehicle platforms has slowed to a crawl. Based on the questions some of our clients (Tier I/II/III suppliers to OEMs) are asking, they are seeing significant slow down in development of ICE products and steep increases in requests for development of electrification based components.


A lot of truth here. The brakes got slammed hard on diesel development due to DieselGate. The expense to OEMs and consumers for aftertreatment plus tightening regulations on NOx and particulate emissions combined to shut the door on the diesel transition. Diesel was on its way to being the “performance fuel” before all that stuff hit the wall.

All of these are factors, but I would say the lobbyist / political influence aspects are more at work against EV than in favor of. Thing is the world view (not to be confused with the US view) of climate change and the impact of carbon emissions on the environment have turned the corner. Countries, companies, and 10 states in the US have declared Carbon Neutrality targets. The 10 states in question have set the longest horizon, 2050. The others are in the 2035-2040 timeframe. Carbon Neutrality does not mean that every vehicle needs to be zero emissions, but it does mean that a whole heck of a lot of them will need to be. Soon.


The only auto company that is working aggressively on synthetic fuels is Volkswagen Automotive Group, and more specifically Audi. Audi was also working on AudiGas during the spin up of diesel. I’m sure most here have never heard of AudiGas. The rest of VAG is working even more aggressively on electrification. For Audi to spin the industry away from electrification is tantamount to tail wagging elephant. Huge animal, teeny weeny tail.

I don't disagree with anything you've said.

But dang...it just seems to me like the synthetic fuel argument makes so much more sense than converting everything over to electric. I've read up on what VAG is doing...although the multiple articles I read were more specifically focused on what Porsche is doing with the fuel. I understand there are issues with it now, such as cost and supply, but with more research and economies of scale I wonder if it could become just as feasible as gasoline is today. From what I've read, it can be ran in mostly all of today's cars and trucks, and the emissions would be drastically cut, and possibly could even result in a net negative result. All of this seems like a much more realistic transition, than the transition to full electric.

Don't get me wrong...I can see myself in some sort of a hybrid in the near-ish future and then full EV further down the road....but that is assuming cost goes down, and charging times improve. But it would be awesome to have vehicles running on synthetic fuels, along with full EV.

EDIT: Originally it said "agree" above. Oops...should have said "disagree".

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Pupilbone

The theme in this thread and these posts is, well, naive. The planets dependency on fossil fuels goes much much further than its use for ICE powered vehicles. We’re talking trillions in economics, and these dollars aren’t going anywhere anytime in the mid to long term future. Ever chowed down on some gummy bears or taken an aspirin? Yeah… fossil fuels had a hand in that.

One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like:

Solvents Diesel fuel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher parts Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Shoelace Aglets
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician’s Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD’s & DVD’s Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

The EV thing is sexy right now, but wait until the naysayers and contrarians latch onto the short term success that brings. They’ll feed on this as quickly as they did the devil ICE. Much more needs to be revealed before our true path forward is laid out. Until then, don’t put all your eggs in any EV power grid dependant basket.

The thing is, the less petroleum based fuels are needed for vehicle transportation, the more petroleum stock there is available for all the things you have listed. That 42 gallons per barrel will still have uses. Refineries can be repurposed to deliver a different mix of product.