[apexit53]

https://www.crbscca.com/

Hi everyone! I ask that you submit a letter to the SEB regarding letter number #25430 and that is to move the M3 competition package out of FS.

If you are for it, great if not no problem just please submit a letter on your thoughts. The group getting moved will always be the angriest and loudest so letters from the other side and neutral parties is always helpful!

Thanks

Mike

[FNxR3DNECK]

You are trying really hard aren't you lol why don't you just go beat them fair and square?!?! lol

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

You are trying really hard aren't you lol why don't you just go beat them fair and square?!?! lol

And that might just be what needs to happen or ill have to buy an M3 :p

[94boosted]

I'm all for this move and have already written a letter in support (#25870).

In my opinion the ZCP/Comp Pkg. is to the E9X M3 what the 1LE and PP2 packages are to the Camaro and Mustang respectively. Lower/stiffer springs, wider wheels and unique shock calibration. While it's true that the 1LE/PP2 packages do more to transform the SS/GT than the ZCP/Comp Pkg. does to the E9X M3 if the SEB is determined to class the best of breed pony cars separately from their stable mates why should the Germans be exempt?

I started this season in a prepped 15' SS 1LE and had the opportunity to drive a zero prep (down to the PSS tires) E92 M3 (non-comp pkg) at a TnT. After 5 laps in my own car I was quicker in the BMW on my very first lap. In fairness it was a fairly transition heavy runway course but I couldn't believe just how much better, at everything, the M3 was and how much easier it was to drive at the limit. I'm sure that pointy end drivers in a Gen 5 1LE, Gen 6 SS & S550 GT are more than able to hang with the M3, especially on larger courses with lots of sweepers, but for the average dude that's just not the case. For me it was such a massive difference between the M3 and the 1LE that I ended up selling the Camaro after 5 events.

[Z3papa]

Originally Posted by 94boosted

I'm all for this move and have already written a letter in support (#25870).

In my opinion the ZCP/Comp Pkg. is to the E9X M3 what the 1LE and PP2 packages are to the Camaro and Mustang respectively. Lower/stiffer springs, wider wheels and unique shock calibration. While it's true that the 1LE/PP2 packages do more to transform the SS/GT than the ZCP/Comp Pkg. does to the E9X M3 if the SEB is determined to class the best of breed pony cars separately from their stable mates why should the Germans be exempt?

I started this season in a prepped 15' SS 1LE and had the opportunity to drive a zero prep (down to the PSS tires) E92 M3 (non-comp pkg) at a TnT. After 5 laps in my own car I was quicker in the BMW on my very first lap. In fairness it was a fairly transition heavy runway course but I couldn't believe just how much better, at everything, the M3 was and how much easier it was to drive at the limit. I'm sure that pointy end drivers in a Gen 5 1LE, Gen 6 SS & S550 GT are more than able to hang with the M3, especially on larger courses with lots of sweepers, but for the average dude that's just not the case. For me it was such a massive difference between the M3 and the 1LE that I ended up selling the Camaro after 5 events.

Comparing the ZCP vs. non-ZCP to the 1LE or PP2 is a joke.

Wheels -- ZCP get's 1/2 wider wheels. 1LE gets 1.5"/2.5" wider wheel
Springs -- ZCP springs are not stiffer, just .3" shorter. The 1LE's springs are much stiffer and shorter by comparison.
Shocks -- ZCP has minimal shock tuning differential in EDC v. non-ZCP. The shock calibration being tuned for the magna ride 1LE shocks is as one would expect in comparing 2011 technology vs. 2017 technology on simply different orders of impact.

As for your inability to compete with or reproduce similar times in the Gen 5 1LE which is 200-250# heavier than the Gen 6 1LE, I can only point to Courtney Cormier's ability be within .4 of Cashmore in 2017, and .2 of a jacket in 2016 to Ryan Otis. They benefited huge from the 305/30-19's which came out in 2016. Finally is the issue of the OP who presents the strongest argument against moving the ZCP. Mike spent the summer of 2018 either beating or being in a minute difference in time at several events at Miller Park, WI, where putting down power (kinda a strong suit for SS1's) is at best difficult. My question is does anyone really want to advocate moving the ZCP out of FS when you know all the observers will say your jacket, your trophy, your result is only because the M3's were moved out?

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by Z3papa

Comparing the ZCP vs. non-ZCP to the 1LE or PP2 is a joke.

Wheels -- ZCP get's 1/2 wider wheels. 1LE gets 1.5"/2.5" wider wheel
Springs -- ZCP springs are not stiffer, just .3" shorter. The 1LE's springs are much stiffer and shorter by comparison.
Shocks -- ZCP has minimal shock tuning differential in EDC v. non-ZCP. The shock calibration being tuned for the magna ride 1LE shocks is as one would expect in comparing 2011 technology vs. 2017 technology on simply different orders of impact.

As for your inability to compete with or reproduce similar times in the Gen 5 1LE which is 200-250# heavier than the Gen 6 1LE, I can only point to Courtney Cormier's ability be within .4 of Cashmore in 2017, and .2 of a jacket in 2016 to Ryan Otis. They benefited huge from the 305/30-19's which came out in 2016. Finally is the issue of the OP who presents the strongest argument against moving the ZCP. Mike spent the summer of 2018 either beating or being in a minute difference in time at several events at Miller Park, WI, where putting down power (kinda a strong suit for SS1's) is at best difficult. My question is does anyone really want to advocate moving the ZCP out of FS when you know all the observers will say your jacket, your trophy, your result is only because the M3's were moved out?

dude, stay on your own forum. lol

I only post this as you can see to get people to write letters either way. Stick to roadraceautoX and complain with all the other m3 owners.

Its been said a million time, its only out for member comment. calm down, they want feedback and they need more than just a bunch of crybabies that are mad their car might get moved... MIGHT. Do i think it needs to be moved.. meh, will i care if it get moved? no because the M3 being gone doesn't guarantee anyone a jacket, you never know who or what will come into the class and win.

[Z3papa]

Originally Posted by apexit53

dude, stay on your own forum. lol

I only post this as you can see to get people to write letters either way. Stick to roadraceautoX and complain with all the other m3 owners.

Its been said a million time, its only out for member comment. calm down, they want feedback and we are just a bunch of crybabies that are mad our car needs the M3 moved... MIGHT. Do i think it needs to be moved.. meh, will i care if it get moved? no because the M3 being gone doesn't guarantee anyone a jacket, you never know who or what will come into the class and win.

Fixed that for you. I guess the 2015 test, and Ryan Otis winning in 2016 should be ignored along with other empirical results. I'll take it a step further. Many of the M3 owners who are competing in FS have been doing so before the Gen6 even existed and were part of rebuilding a class which had Nat'l participation as low as 18 just a few years prior.

[apexit53]

All noise. Writhe your letters, complain all you want. Who cares. The scca will do what they want so it’s not with bitching over. Silly season in full swing. Just looking forward to next year, bench racing isn’t for me.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by Z3papa

Fixed that for you. I guess the 2015 test, and Ryan Otis winning in 2016 should be ignored along with other empirical results. I'll take it a step further. Many of the M3 owners who are competing in FS have been doing so before the Gen6 even existed and were part of rebuilding a class which had Nat'l participation as low as 18 just a few years prior.

So are you scared of having to fight 6th gen 1LEs???????? Sounds like you are deflecting all the shade on Mike because you're trying to hide your on fears lol

[Gefiltefish]

I am an SAC member and former Gen6 Camaro owner (moved on from it last year).

This topic was put out for member comment after receiving letters and comments in other letters over the years (I have been on the SAC since 2016).

I want to thank everyone for the comments we have received so far. Our agenda is full of letters. Please don't be offended if you get a "Thank you for your input" reply. We are not going to make a quick decision on this item. After all, it would be for 2020 anyway. And we need to clear our agenda each month!

We on the SAC (and our bosses on the SEB) have to plan for the future well in advance. It takes time to class cars, move cars, etc. With that in mind, we are very concerned about the FS numbers at the National solo level. 2018 Solo Nationals numbers were on the weak side and the participation at other National Solo Series events (Pro Solo, National Tour, etc) also saw a large decrease in class participation. That - combined with letters we received over the years, made us think it was a good time to send this subject out for member comment. Its the silly season and we knew this was a good time to get member feedback. We have been talking about this at the SAC level for several months. Several scenarios were thought of.

My personal support of pushing this out for comment was based on that "bumping" the ZCP has the least effect on a majority of the car owners in the class. There were more non-ZCP owners (as in Camaro and Mustang owners) competing at the National level than ZCP owners. And numbers have shown that the ZCP could compete in BS (although not at the tippy-top, it could contend for trophies).

If we had instead floating something like moving all of the "Track Pony" cars (6th gen SS 1LE, Mustang PP2, GT350, etc) to FS - we could be forcing EVERYONE in FS to buy new cars. Those cars would likely be significantly faster than ZCP's and obviously faster than the Mustang GT's, Camaro SS's and 5th gen 1LE's. Additionally "Track Ponies" are expensive cars. They are new (for the most part) and north of $40,000. I don't personally believe those cars can support a National Solo class.

We are trying to gauge why people are not participating in FS. 25430 being out for comment is the first step in gauging the memberships perception of the class. There could be more FS ideas going out for comment as well. We have the "German Pony Car" in the M3 there now, perhaps we ask for comments on allowing "Japanese Pony Cars" like the 370Z to go to FS? (you would not believe how many 370Z letters we get!!!) Maybe we do nothing, but are there enough ZCP owners out there to make a healthy National solo class? Heck, maybe we have too many Street classes and FS (as we know it) gets completely eliminated!?! Anything is a possibility. Nothing has been decided. So please write us you letters!

[JRL1LE]

Originally Posted by Z3papa

Fixed that for you. I guess the 2015 test, and Ryan Otis winning in 2016 should be ignored along with other empirical results. I'll take it a step further. Many of the M3 owners who are competing in FS have been doing so before the Gen6 even existed and were part of rebuilding a class which had Nat'l participation as low as 18 just a few years prior.

Man, looks someone needs some cheese with that whine

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by Gefiltefish

If we had instead floating something like moving all of the "Track Pony" cars (6th gen SS 1LE, Mustang PP2, GT350, etc) to FS - we could be forcing EVERYONE in FS to buy new cars. Those cars would likely be significantly faster than ZCP's and obviously faster than the Mustang GT's, Camaro SS's and 5th gen 1LE's. Additionally "Track Ponies" are expensive cars. They are new (for the most part) and north of $40,000. I don't personally believe those cars can support a National Solo class.

Thanks for the insight! I for have to agree 100% with your point here, though I am one of the guys that did go out and buy a $40k "track-pony" I think they would be a heavy over-dog in FS and would potentially kill the rest of the class which of course nobody wants that.

I was very skeptical about the move to BS until I saw all of the cars that were moved out of BS to DS, basically "making room" for the track ponies. I think they will be VERY competitive in BS (unlike they were in AS ) mainly with the M2, I personally don't have much experience with the ZCPs because there's really only one local guy that runs one in FS so I can't really say whether I think it will be competitive or not. But that's fine cuz that's yall's job! haha

[JRL1LE]

Originally Posted by Gefiltefish

I am an SAC member and former Gen6 Camaro owner (moved on from it last year).

This topic was put out for member comment after receiving letters and comments in other letters over the years (I have been on the SAC since 2016).

I want to thank everyone for the comments we have received so far. Our agenda is full of letters. Please don't be offended if you get a "Thank you for your input" reply. We are not going to make a quick decision on this item. After all, it would be for 2020 anyway. And we need to clear our agenda each month!

We on the SAC (and our bosses on the SEB) have to plan for the future well in advance. It takes time to class cars, move cars, etc. With that in mind, we are very concerned about the FS numbers at the National solo level. 2018 Solo Nationals numbers were on the weak side and the participation at other National Solo Series events (Pro Solo, National Tour, etc) also saw a large decrease in class participation. That - combined with letters we received over the years, made us think it was a good time to send this subject out for member comment. Its the silly season and we knew this was a good time to get member feedback. We have been talking about this at the SAC level for several months. Several scenarios were thought of.

My personal support of pushing this out for comment was based on that "bumping" the ZCP has the least effect on a majority of the car owners in the class. There were more non-ZCP owners (as in Camaro and Mustang owners) competing at the National level than ZCP owners. And numbers have shown that the ZCP could compete in BS (although not at the tippy-top, it could contend for trophies).

If we had instead floating something like moving all of the "Track Pony" cars (6th gen SS 1LE, Mustang PP2, GT350, etc) to FS - we could be forcing EVERYONE in FS to buy new cars. Those cars would likely be significantly faster than ZCP's and obviously faster than the Mustang GT's, Camaro SS's and 5th gen 1LE's. Additionally "Track Ponies" are expensive cars. They are new (for the most part) and north of $40,000. I don't personally believe those cars can support a National Solo class.

We are trying to gauge why people are not participating in FS. 25430 being out for comment is the first step in gauging the memberships perception of the class. There could be more FS ideas going out for comment as well. We have the "German Pony Car" in the M3 there now, perhaps we ask for comments on allowing "Japanese Pony Cars" like the 370Z to go to FS? (you would not believe how many 370Z letters we get!!!) Maybe we do nothing, but are there enough ZCP owners out there to make a healthy National solo class? Heck, maybe we have too many Street classes and FS (as we know it) gets completely eliminated!?! Anything is a possibility. Nothing has been decided. So please write us you letters!

Thanks for explaining the thought process on this topic and for your work on the SAC. We appreciate it

[94boosted]

Originally Posted by Z3papa

Comparing the ZCP vs. non-ZCP to the 1LE or PP2 is a joke.

Wheels -- ZCP get's 1/2 wider wheels. 1LE gets 1.5"/2.5" wider wheel
Springs -- ZCP springs are not stiffer, just .3" shorter. The 1LE's springs are much stiffer and shorter by comparison.
Shocks -- ZCP has minimal shock tuning differential in EDC v. non-ZCP. The shock calibration being tuned for the magna ride 1LE shocks is as one would expect in comparing 2011 technology vs. 2017 technology on simply different orders of impact.

As for your inability to compete with or reproduce similar times in the Gen 5 1LE which is 200-250# heavier than the Gen 6 1LE, I can only point to Courtney Cormier's ability be within .4 of Cashmore in 2017, and .2 of a jacket in 2016 to Ryan Otis. They benefited huge from the 305/30-19's which came out in 2016. Finally is the issue of the OP who presents the strongest argument against moving the ZCP. Mike spent the summer of 2018 either beating or being in a minute difference in time at several events at Miller Park, WI, where putting down power (kinda a strong suit for SS1's) is at best difficult. My question is does anyone really want to advocate moving the ZCP out of FS when you know all the observers will say your jacket, your trophy, your result is only because the M3's were moved out?

I did specifically state in my post "that the 1LE/PP2 packages do more to transform the SS/GT than the ZCP/Comp Pkg. does to the E9X M3", maybe you missed that part. Either way what you're stating above isn't accurate either:

- SS wheel widths are 8.5"/9.5" and 1LE wheel widths are 10"/11" therefore a change of 1.5" for both F&R not 2.5" for the rear as you indicated
- The 1LE front springs are a bit stiffer than the SS springs, yes but the rear springs are actually a bit softer. And while the front springs are a bit lower (0.3") the rear springs are actually a bit taller (0.2")
- As for the EDC changes on the ZCP cars, sport mode is now active ("dynamic") as opposed to passive (fixed at 75% stiffness), not sure how minimal that is


I was citing my own personal experience (prepped and well sorted Gen 5 SS 1LE vs a basically showroom stock E9X M3) which is very much applicable to the conversation. I may not be a pointy end driver but I'm not the slowest either. Like I said in my first post, the pointy end FS drivers in a Gen 5 1LE/Gen 6 SS/S550 GT are much closer to the M3 (still not enough to win at Nats in the last 2 years) but for the rest of us the M3 is so much easier to be faster in it's not even funny.

Not sure what my example has to do with a Gen 6 SS 1LE but since you brought it up I'm also not sure where you're getting your 200-250lb weight difference between a Gen 6 1LE and a Gen 5 1LE, the difference in curb weight is only ~135lbs.

I would personally much prefer to have all best of breed cars (1LE & PP2) together in FS than I would putting the ZCP/Comp. Pkg. in BS.