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Old 11-19-2021, 12:33 PM   #15
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I wouldn’t take Andy Palmer’s perspective based on the production —> lifecycle example of one vehicle to draw a conclusion that 100,000 miles is the break even for all EVs. I’d say that he was a bit heavy handed in the example he chose. As BEVs mature, the processes to produce them will also become more efficient. Both GM and Ford are focused on the plants that will produce their BEVs being carbon neutral. Much different than the Volvo example Palmer uses. Let’s think about it for a minute…Andy Palmer talks about the payback period of an electric vehicle. And what is he doing now? Head of a company that produces what? Electric buses.

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Originally Posted by sandm
ev's fit a need for some and if used in the right way, can be a net zero on the environment once they are put into service.

ex- guy at work has a tesla model 3. he works overnights. he charges his car during the day off his solar on his house. that's environmentally good for the world compared to ice's.

but that's not everyone....

in the end, I think ev's can coexist with ice's but to sell the as the end all be all... that's not speaking the whole truth on how treehugger-friendly they really are...
This is the guidance I give most of my clients when we discuss the impact electrification will have on their businesses. There will be some ICE vehicles around for at least the next couple decades because BEVs don’t cover all uses cases. For the use cases they do cover they are much more efficient than an ICE, but for the ones where they are not well suited, ICE will stick around, but at much lower volumes.
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Old 11-19-2021, 12:42 PM   #16
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Yeah, skip the EV push and ban school sports. All these moms and dads carting these kids around to games and practices. Useless. About 0.001% of them will go on to careers in athletics, while about 60% will just join the ranks of America's worst healthcare crisis-- OBESITY!
Oh, and I carted my kids too. But I knew the reality.
I like the cut of your jib...
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:13 PM   #17
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I personally do not want an EV right now. I would need to see their range increase dramatically, or their recharge times to decrease dramatically before I could justify owning one.

I do think they are more efficient the ICE, but they can only be used effectively in a very limited slew of applications and so many people who are promoting EV's ignoring the fact that people make car buying choices for ALL factors of their driving, not just the 80% of traveling too / from work, all factors are equally important and vehicle owners should not be criticized for making decisions to conviniently satisfy all needs rather than trying to tailor their needs to satisfy a car's functionality. I personally can drive very long distances without rest, an EV would not be able to achieve this.

Either way, this sh!t show is coming and probably sooner than we think. I'm very worried about it. I really hate that so much propaganda is being enforced to making people actually believe they're stopping climate change, that they're saving the ecosystem, or that they're actually better people than people who choose not to change, just because they own an EV.. ..the construction of an EV outputs just as much Co2 as an ICE vehicle over an 8 year period. Thats ALOT of Co2 over a single point of time, how are we stopping climate change by doing that? We're not... We -can't- stop climate change in a world populating over 6 billion people. Another thing is, as much as propaganda would love to have us all believe, cars are NOT the largest Co2 contributors on the planet. You know what are? developing nations! They have very little in the way of emissions restrictions and they also need one very important massive Co2 contributing resource, you know what that is? Concrete.. Another major Co2 contributor is agriculture, especially rice farms. They destroy large areas of forestry (which reduces Co2) and also contribute largely to the problem.

For getting around town, EV's do outperform comparable ICE vehicles. As long as your duties can be performed within a period or range of a full charge negating the need to recharge. Also unlike ICE vehicles, they are not solely reliant on fossil fuels for their method of recharging (although much of our power grid is still heavily reliant on them) - although expensive, one could install a Tesla Solar Roof and Power Wall, remaining independent of the grid and recharge their vehicle as well.

Either way, its massive propaganda... unfortunately much of our society won't realize what a terrible mistake this was until its too late.. ..enjoy these moments while you can folks..
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:23 PM   #18
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EVs are the future but they aren't the solution to our problems.

A world with 8+ billion people is going to be a problem and we're going to have to rethink how we live.

We've already made horrible mistakes building out urban/suburban areas that are 100% car reliant, sprawl over square miles full of strip malls and parking lots mostly covered with concrete. This type of "city" and it's associated problems like traffic and long commutes, with no infrastructure or consideration for walking or biking that's the main issue IMO.
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Old 11-19-2021, 04:23 PM   #19
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I-95 from Richmond Virginia to Portland Maine is an excellent example to what Dave said above.


As far as EVs go I believe it is going to take much longer than people realize to fully adopt here due to political reasons and people not wanting to be forced into what they believe to be a political agenda as well as things mentioned before like houses with street parking only apartment dwellers etc. Wife and I are looking for a truck a couple to a few years down the road and we have started research casually and while the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger crowd is very small the pickup truck crowd is not and in fact correct me if I am wrong its the largest in the US and is also the Big 3s bread and butter. The people on forums and other sources of communication have displayed unwelcoming responses to EVs in trucks at least for right now simply due to biases against it or in the case I am in or others it just simply doesn't work for people looking to tow a trailer across state lines or hauling. Ford also recently stopped development of an EV Superduty for now as well. (F250 or bigger trucks for those that do not know) Ram made no mention of EV in their HD trucks and I don't know what GM is doing in the future for their HD trucks. I expect the 1500 series trucks and F150s to have a mixture of ICE and an EV with hybrid options like the Powerboost and Tundras IForce Max probably until I hit my 60s and 70s.

For Cars like Sedans or crossovers and other smallish SUVs for local commutes or other local needs I see this as the segment EVs will shine and have the most buyers however that is just my theory and speculations.
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Old 11-19-2021, 08:31 PM   #20
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You can't build enough windmills, solar farms, or power plants to charge the US fleet.
Hell, we are having a hard time just keeping the lights on as it is thanks to all this environMENTAL extremism.
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:13 PM   #21
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You can't build enough windmills, solar farms, or power plants to charge the US fleet.
Hell, we are having a hard time just keeping the lights on as it is thanks to all this environMENTAL extremism.
I was on a speaker panel at a conference last week with a guy responsible for modernizing the power capacity for DTE, the biggest electric and gas utility in Michigan. It was one of the first questions he was asked. In short, his answer was “we’ll be ready”. He went into detail on the things they will be working on. The detail would bore the crap out of most people on this forum, but it’s very clear that they’re putting in the work.
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Old 11-20-2021, 01:16 AM   #22
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I think EVs, and more specifically lighter/higher capacity batteries, are great and are advantageous in many scenarios. Look at modern phones and power tools and how much we have increased battery performance.

That being said a lot of good points have been made though. The thing is people truly believe that a Tesla model S is going to instantly save the world from all this supposed impending doom. To me all Tesla did was just stuff a huge amount of extra batteries which fixed the problem of EV's having the slow stigma. But why doesn't a Tesla carry the same stigma as Hummers and SUVs did during the 2000s gas crises? How is that many batteries a "sustainable" product?

I see a repeat of the late 1970s coming when leaded fuel was taken away, but I see reality hitting when manufactures realize how much batteries they need, especially when you build cars like Teslas which have an insane amount of them, I think they are going to have to significantly cut back on batteries, and thereby cutback on weight, which will of course slow them down.

I see so much hype and, of the grid will handle it fine, oh in 10 years everything will be electric, oh there will be charging stations everywhere. Its a whole lot of talk and yet to see action.

And also they love to hype up the "zero emissions" fantasy as well, but the modern ICE with modern emissions controls is virtually "zero emissions" as well but the average person is just so convinced every time they turn on a ICE millions will die. Of course if you consider CO2 an emission than they aren't, but for the emissions that are actually harmful to human health or the environment there has been so much progress made.


If the EPA can make these weakly associated claims in how this is going to prevent millions of cancer related deaths and lung disease deaths why can't I relate all the millions of suicide deaths on celebrities making people feel ugly and Instagram obsessions making people murder others?

The absolute worst thing we can do is start banning things, and banning ICE is all I see and the world is obsessed with it. I agree with the Forbes article 100000% which is extremely surprising for them to make those statements given Forbes in extremely biased on one end of the political spectrum.

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Old 11-20-2021, 08:52 AM   #23
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I think EVs, and more specifically lighter/higher capacity batteries, are great and are advantageous in many scenarios. Look at modern phones and power tools and how much we have increased battery performance.

That being said a lot of good points have been made though. The thing is people truly believe that a Tesla model S is going to instantly save the world from all this supposed impending doom. To me all Tesla did was just stuff a huge amount of extra batteries which fixed the problem of EV's having the slow stigma. But why doesn't a Tesla carry the same stigma as Hummers and SUVs did during the 2000s gas crises? How is that many batteries a "sustainable" product?
Only a minority believe they are saving the world with Tesla's. Just like back in the 2000's you had a minority believe their Prius's were saving the world. Others may pretend to go, " yeah man! I am saving the world!" but they are doing that to "fit in". Reason why you have people pretending to care about saving the world is because electricity is cheap right now.

It's why people didn't care about SUV's and Hummers until gas prices skyrocketed. Right now it cost me $37.50 to go 1109 miles in my Model 3. Where if that was in my Camaro SS, that would be $215. You will see a ton of people who are just trying to fit into the mold quickly flip if the cost of electricity shot up to or above gas prices.

I do not believe I am saving the world with my Tesla. I know battery manufacturing is a dirty process plus my electricity is coming from fossil fuels. I still love the car and an EV works for my lifestyle right now.
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Old 11-20-2021, 09:31 AM   #24
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I wouldn’t take Andy Palmer’s perspective based on the production —> lifecycle example of one vehicle to draw a conclusion that 100,000 miles is the break even for all EVs. I’d say that he was a bit heavy handed in the example he chose. As BEVs mature, the processes to produce them will also become more efficient. Both GM and Ford are focused on the plants that will produce their BEVs being carbon neutral. Much different than the Volvo example Palmer uses. Let’s think about it for a minute…Andy Palmer talks about the payback period of an electric vehicle. And what is he doing now? Head of a company that produces what? Electric buses.


This is the guidance I give most of my clients when we discuss the impact electrification will have on their businesses. There will be some ICE vehicles around for at least the next couple decades because BEVs don’t cover all uses cases. For the use cases they do cover they are much more efficient than an ICE, but for the ones where they are not well suited, ICE will stick around, but at much lower volumes.
Carbon neutral? Offsetting what?

John Kerry’s private jet is carbon neutral.
Quote:
“If you offset your carbon, it's the only choice for somebody like me…”
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Old 11-20-2021, 10:37 AM   #25
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Carbon neutral? Offsetting what?
One of the most common criticisms of electric vehicles, including Andy Palmer’s well chosen example, is that building them introduces more carbon emissions than what is introduced through manufacture of ICE vehicles. What GM and Ford (soon to be followed by other automakers) are doing is setting up their factories to be run on renewable energy. Not only will the vehicles they build not produce more carbon emissions, they will actually neutralize the amount of carbon emissions from the manufacturing plants. Factory Zero.

What people tend not to take into account is the carbon emissions from building a vehicle happens once in the lifecycle of the vehicle. The carbon emissions from burning petroleum is continuous. So if the automaker can eliminate the carbon emissions of building the vehicle and significantly reduce the carbon emissions of operating it, it is a win for the environment. Could the automakers get to “net zero” manufacturing of ICE vehicles? Probably. But then there’s that nagging little issue of continued carbon emissions with every key start.
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Old 11-20-2021, 12:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
One of the most common criticisms of electric vehicles, including Andy Palmer’s well chosen example, is that building them introduces more carbon emissions than what is introduced through manufacture of ICE vehicles. What GM and Ford (soon to be followed by other automakers) are doing is setting up their factories to be run on renewable energy. Not only will the vehicles they build not produce more carbon emissions, they will actually neutralize the amount of carbon emissions from the manufacturing plants. Factory Zero.

What people tend not to take into account is the carbon emissions from building a vehicle happens once in the lifecycle of the vehicle. The carbon emissions from burning petroleum is continuous. So if the automaker can eliminate the carbon emissions of building the vehicle and significantly reduce the carbon emissions of operating it, it is a win for the environment. Could the automakers get to “net zero” manufacturing of ICE vehicles? Probably. But then there’s that nagging little issue of continued carbon emissions with every key start.
Factory Zero? ...don’t know about that.
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Old 11-20-2021, 01:26 PM   #27
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Factory Zero? ...don’t know about that.
GM is focusing all of its plants that will build BEVs to have zero net carbon emissions. This means offsetting whatever carbon is emitted with measures taken to absorb carbon back in from the atmosphere.

Factory ZERO highlights include:

* GM reused or recycled almost every material that came out of the facility during conversion, including crushed concrete from the old plant floor, which was repurposed for temporary roads around the facility.

* Storm water will be recycled to reduce discharge costs and offset the cost of potable water.

* Treated storm water will be used in cooling towers and the plant’s fire suppression system.

* The site features a 30-kilowatt solar carport and 516-kW ground-mounted photovoltaic solar array from DTE Energy.

*Factory ZERO’s site has a 16.5-acre wildlife habitat that is home to monarch butterflies, foxes, and turkeys.

https://www.gm.com/factoryzero?gclid...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 11-20-2021, 02:40 PM   #28
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One of the most common criticisms of electric vehicles, including Andy Palmer’s well chosen example, is that building them introduces more carbon emissions than what is introduced through manufacture of ICE vehicles. What GM and Ford (soon to be followed by other automakers) are doing is setting up their factories to be run on renewable energy. Not only will the vehicles they build not produce more carbon emissions, they will actually neutralize the amount of carbon emissions from the manufacturing plants. Factory Zero.

What people tend not to take into account is the carbon emissions from building a vehicle happens once in the lifecycle of the vehicle. The carbon emissions from burning petroleum is continuous. So if the automaker can eliminate the carbon emissions of building the vehicle and significantly reduce the carbon emissions of operating it, it is a win for the environment. Could the automakers get to “net zero” manufacturing of ICE vehicles? Probably. But then there’s that nagging little issue of continued carbon emissions with every key start.
So you’re saying ALL of the energy required to produce ALL of the part AND assemble them will come from renewable energies?
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