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Old 03-13-2019, 12:57 PM   #29
Ryephile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LE Red Dragon View Post
...If I am not mistaken the PCM will not allow 100% throttle below a certain RPM (2500 RPM, from memory). So unless you are tuned you will not make full torque capable....
FYI, that's actually on the C7 Corvette, not on the Gen6 Camaro. The latter has 100% throttle opening from 0 RPM available. Graph attached from my SS 1LE's stock mapping. ZL1 may be different, I don't have a ZL1 stock file.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:46 PM   #30
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lugging is lugging. it applies to more than just the ltx. big truck motors for example - they make peak torque near 2k ft lbs at 1100 rpm. guess what happens when they’re driven and loaded frequently at those rpms. yes, they suffer egr problems (if applicable) and deposit build ups. there’s more to an engine than numbers. some of you get it, but it appears most don’t. as i said before, we can explain it but we can’t understand it for you.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:24 PM   #31
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Wow. 6th works just fine people. I guess if you want you can buzz along at 3000rpm like in my old wrx, but wow...
Only 3k rpm? Lol, my '90 Miata was turning over 4k at 70 mph.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by s346k View Post
lugging is lugging. it applies to more than just the ltx. big truck motors for example - they make peak torque near 2k ft lbs at 1100 rpm. guess what happens when they’re driven and loaded frequently at those rpms. yes, they suffer egr problems (if applicable) and deposit build ups. there’s more to an engine than numbers. some of you get it, but it appears most don’t. as i said before, we can explain it but we can’t understand it for you.


Ryephile said WOT at idle in 6th is fine.


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Old 03-13-2019, 05:15 PM   #33
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Ryephile said WOT at idle in 6th is fine.


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Old 03-13-2019, 05:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by s346k View Post
lugging is lugging. it applies to more than just the ltx. big truck motors for example - they make peak torque near 2k ft lbs at 1100 rpm. guess what happens when they’re driven and loaded frequently at those rpms. yes, they suffer egr problems (if applicable) and deposit build ups. there’s more to an engine than numbers. some of you get it, but it appears most don’t. as i said before, we can explain it but we can’t understand it for you.
Are you moving the topic to a different engine now? I wasn't talking about the LTX or some random "big truck motor". Make a new thread if you're going to not discuss the Gen V LT1.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:56 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by zx9rmal View Post

To me, it's not subjective. Lugging is lugging. And yes, it's not up for debate. Just because the motor has torque at 1k rpm, that's meaningless. 2nd gear at 1k rpm, sure. 6th gear at 1k rpm? That's the ultimate in lugging an engine. I won't address the name calling.

I'd like to see a well respected engine builder weigh in on this.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have a ME degree, owned an auto/welding shop, built a few vehicles from the ground up and simulated an engine in school using Ricardo Wave for a class.

Ryephile is a complete idiot imo.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 1LE Red Dragon View Post
A couple of thoughts here.

If I am not mistaken the PCM will not allow 100% throttle below a certain RPM (2500 RPM, from memory). So unless you are tuned you will not make full torque capable.

For highest MPG, you need to model your manual trans shiftpoint based on the same characteristics of an automatic transmission. The autos try to obtain maximum MPG, based on the torque required. You will see the autos shift very low in the RPM range. The manual also has a skip gear from 1st to 4th gear up to 29 mph. So you can see what RPM you are running at 29 mph, and that should tell you about how much you can lug the engine (RPM wise).

Both 5th gear and 6th gear are overdrive by ratio, if I am not mistaken, so you can use 5th as an overdrive gear, and cruise in 5th gear. Your throttle will be more jumpy and you will use more gas, IF that is something that sounds logical to you. Or you can choose to move up to 6th gear, to minimize frictional loses, and maximize engine longevity. Keep in mind, you wear an engine by RPM and load. So if the load is the same and RPM is higher you have more wear, and more friction, so more gas is needed to overcome those.

My ZL1 1LE pulls so hard at low RPM in 6th gear, I have to check to make sure I am not in 4th gear. So I use 6th gear alot. From a 6th gear roll, I would outrun most cars from 2000 RPM.

As for me, I like to spend as little on gas as I can when I am not WOT, so I guess by your definitions I lug the engine some. But my 6th gear is lower in the ZLE that the normal ZL1 6 speed trans.

My $.02
100% throttle opening is probably not required at low rpm for maximum torque.

1>4 skip is active as low as 16 mph and the blocker retracts around 20 mph in the SS. Best mpg tends to be lower rpms/higher loads. EE vids do a good job explaining it, and I agree it's about what an auto does as the OEM is trying to maximize fuel economy, at least if the trans is in standard mode vs a performance mode that may discard fuel economy entirely.

https://youtu.be/iNspNdVkslA

The gearing in the SS and ZLE tranny is different, it's more like a 5 speed with a 2nd overdrive gear while the ZLE is more like a normal 6 speed manual. SS and Zl1 have about .75:1 and .5:1 5th and 6th while ZLE 6th is about .75, if I remember right. Anyways, in my SS I can shift into 5th as low as about 38 mph so that would be the same for 6th in the ZLE. You could easily do a 1>6 shift, lol...
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:27 AM   #37
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Lugging

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Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
NVH is a different topic from "lugging", just so we're clear. NVH is "I feel or hear things", and "lugging" is probably best defined as LPSI and/or insufficient oiling. Driving the car how you "feel is best or most fun" isn't the same as what the engine is capable of or developed for. I'm seeing a lot of other people unable or unwilling to make that distinction.
I clearly stated it wasn't actually lugging to go into 6th before 50mph. I shared my driving/shifting style and my preference to shift at 50 mph to 6th, although if I'm already in 6th and it dips to 45 mph I just leave it.

Shifting to 6th at 50 mph isn't driving for "fun" or because I "feel" good it's to avoid an obvious annoying amount of vibration and noise.

I like to keep my rpms as low as possible unless I'm purposely getting into it, but those 45 mph noises and vibrations are annoying when one is listening to music or conversing with a passenger and easily avoided by shifting to 6th 5mph or a couple of hundred rpms later.

I agree with your data based statement that the engine is rated and designed to perform from 1k rpm to 6+k, but there's also plenty of things that manufacturers make that are designed to perform to a certain standard that still have optimal operation practices in the real world for longevity.
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:36 AM   #38
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Only 3k rpm? Lol, my '90 Miata was turning over 4k at 70 mph.
My nb Miata does the same thing lol.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:26 AM   #39
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i won’t use 6th unless i’m going 65 or over. dgaf about fuel mileage and anyone whining about rpm needs to trade their maro in for a volt.

Damn, anything over 50mph and I'm in 6th.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:54 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87 View Post
I clearly stated it wasn't actually lugging to go into 6th before 50mph. I shared my driving/shifting style and my preference to shift at 50 mph to 6th, although if I'm already in 6th and it dips to 45 mph I just leave it.

Shifting to 6th at 50 mph isn't driving for "fun" or because I "feel" good it's to avoid an obvious annoying amount of vibration and noise.

I like to keep my rpms as low as possible unless I'm purposely getting into it, but those 45 mph noises and vibrations are annoying when one is listening to music or conversing with a passenger and easily avoided by shifting to 6th 5mph or a couple of hundred rpms later.

I agree with your data based statement that the engine is rated and designed to perform from 1k rpm to 6+k, but there's also plenty of things that manufacturers make that are designed to perform to a certain standard that still have optimal operation practices in the real world for longevity.
The noises and vibrations you get using 6th at 45 mph is lugging.

It's shockwaves going through the bottom end of the motor and is very bad for pistons, rods and engine bearings. It's a result of insufficient piston speed after ignition, when the air/fuel charge is detonated by the spark plug it wants to expand, and if it can't push the piston out of the way fast enough you get that sound and vibration as a result. Some motors are more effected by lugging than others, i.e. air-cooled VW motors hated it and American V8s tend to be more difficult to damage by lugging, but it's possible and the owner's manual warns against it specifically.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:30 AM   #41
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Revs

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC113 View Post
The noises and vibrations you get using 6th at 45 mph is lugging.

It's shockwaves going through the bottom end of the motor and is very bad for pistons, rods and engine bearings. It's a result of insufficient piston speed after ignition, when the air/fuel charge is detonated by the spark plug it wants to expand, and if it can't push the piston out of the way fast enough you get that sound and vibration as a result. Some motors are more effected by lugging than others, i.e. air-cooled VW motors hated it and American V8s tend to be more difficult to damage by lugging, but it's possible and the owner's manual warns against it specifically.
I figured they were not good but I'm trying to be civil with the guy arguing that it isn't. I didn't know exactly where the lugging point is or isn't, but either way I try to shift into 6th when above 50 mph because the vibrations are both unsettling/annoying and seem possibly damaging to me. Usually try to shift between 1500-2k to be safe.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:47 AM   #42
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To me the whole 1-4 skip shift thing is the definition of lugging, too high a gear for the vehicle speed.
The few times I let it happen I wasn't happy with the results, I would intentionally shift earlier or later into second just to avoid the forced 1-4 shift.
If I got caught by the skip shift nanny I would just go to neutral and then go for second.
PITA
Then I just got the eliminator.
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