[JOHNSONROD]

i was an instructor/private coach for 13 years and i can tell you all instructors are not the same. if he was sitting there silent until you made a mistake and then talking about it while its in your mirror and other turns are coming up, hes not the guy for you. you can ask for a different pairing. sometimes it just dont work out. some instructors are better with novice people who need a minute. some instructors are better for taking a fast guy and making him faster. since none of us were there, and only have your perspective, we can only guess what happened and what might fix it. you have said looking back you could have prepared better. seems like you could have used more feedback from the right seat. you didnt mention if you got a ride with someone familiar with the track. that works great for some. and there is always the rare case of OSB, other sports beckon. thats probably not the case but some people just dont ever get it. if you were closer id recommend the HPDI program at NCM. its a 1 day with lots of classroom, terms and on track. its done with a focused target set of goals for each on track session and everyone is doing the same thing. maybe reach out to the club you want to run with and tell them your concerns. last thing, do you really want to do this or is it just a casual thing you might want to do once or twice?

[NHills1LE]

Originally Posted by JOHNSONROD

i was an instructor/private coach for 13 years and i can tell you all instructors are not the same. if he was sitting there silent until you made a mistake and then talking about it while its in your mirror and other turns are coming up, hes not the guy for you. you can ask for a different pairing. sometimes it just dont work out. some instructors are better with novice people who need a minute. some instructors are better for taking a fast guy and making him faster. since none of us were there, and only have your perspective, we can only guess what happened and what might fix it. you have said looking back you could have prepared better. seems like you could have used more feedback from the right seat. you didnt mention if you got a ride with someone familiar with the track. that works great for some. and there is always the rare case of OSB, other sports beckon. thats probably not the case but some people just dont ever get it. if you were closer id recommend the HPDI program at NCM. its a 1 day with lots of classroom, terms and on track. its done with a focused target set of goals for each on track session and everyone is doing the same thing. maybe reach out to the club you want to run with and tell them your concerns. last thing, do you really want to do this or is it just a casual thing you might want to do once or twice?

The instructor was giving me input in real time, and since he's been driving the track for many years, was also trying to tell me what was coming, but during the complex parts of the track, that didn't help very much, because by the time I heard what was coming, I was already on top of it. For part of one of the later sessions, he drove my car with me in the passenger seat, and I thought that helped a lot, but that was the only experience I got as a passenger.



My primary goal in tracking the car is to learn how to drive it at its full potential in a legal setting. Probably not going to pursue mods to make it faster, but to learn to drive it hard as it is, and then maintain that skill. That's still a significant time/money commitment, I know, though not as much as many guys seem to be doing.

[Zl1+911]

Instructors need to align with the student - give fewer input and ahead of time if that’s what is better - clearly in your case even though the instructor was competent- he wasn’t keeping ahead of u or perhaps giving u too much to do. Just ask for a different instructor and go back a few times to the same track and u will be having fun in no time ....

[weemus]

Depends on your comfort level but the first HPDE is more about learning the track, track etiquette, and managing traffic (which it sounds like you did).

Just like anything else if you do (not necessary but HIGHLY beneficial) some homework, i.e. study the track, watch some videos you will be ahead of the curve and moving at a much better pace along with a higher level of comfort in regards to knowing where you going and when to do what.

Speaking on your instructor it sounds like you could have used some rally pace notes, given a bit earlier but remember communication is a 2 way street. Sometimes if your feeling like this is not fun and your getting good instructions but late just say something. Everyone is different including your instructor but they may not have picked up on delayed inputs. Best to air out your feelings in the future. They want you to succeed and have fun as well.

For the green group you can have people that sign up with minimal track experience at that specific track or in general but may have some from other backgrounds so someone who has run superbikes will feel pretty comfortable at speed but they are just getting to know the track and car. Even some autocross experience can be beneficial (outside of the aggressive inputs) as they fully understand vehicle dynamics such as weight transfer and possibly even trail braking.

I suggest you go at it again but do as much homework as you can tolerate. It will make a big difference. This is all a part of being a novice and if your not getting the help you want lay it out. If at your next event you let your instructor know in advance how your first experience was they will likely go the extra mile to ensure you have fun.

[BMR Sales]

I've been Instructing for over 30 Years. There are some Instructors that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy!

I did the Classroom Sessions for PCA for years where it was Group by Group. These are Important times to pick up small bits of info in a casual setting and you get to know the guys & girls you are running with.

There are times that I have to tell Students to Slow Down - it's my life on the line too.

There is always going to be somebody faster on Track. Stay on your line while they pass you.

a 2 Day Event for a 1st timer is probably too much. The Point is to have fun. Go back, it will be OK

[UnknownJinX]

Just a little advice: you gotta do some homework on your own. Two things come to mind: Autocrossing and reading up on driving lines online before you attend.

To give you some perspective, when I first took my RX-8 to Autocrossing, I got 3 DNF runs before I realized that I missed a gate completely, and that was at much slower speeds than how fast you would go at a track.

Autocross is very friendly for people who don't have much experience. There are only ever, at most, two cars on the track at the same time and they are spaced far enough apart that one guy will never catch up to the other. The speeds are lower so you have more time to process things, and remembering the route around the cones could be good practice for remembering driving lines on a track. Admission is also cheaper and there is less wear and tear on your car than a track day.

Personally, I actually wouldn't even recommend tracking until you get comfortable with Autocrossing first. Can't run before you know how to even walk properly.

Originally Posted by sr71bb

I then did 4-5 One day events where the format was LEAD/FOLLOW. Basically the instructor was in the car in FRONT of you and you followed in your car HIS line and observed HIS braking points. I liked THIS format MUCH better and I noticed my progression in driving skill accelerated.

Now for a bit of thread-hijacking...

I am currently considering a lesson as well after some time at the local track, but with the current COVID restrictions, it will likely be done with lead-follow.

My main question is this: if the driving instructor is driving a very different car like a BRZ or Miata(not many ponies but very light and nimble), is the driving line applicable for a bigger and heavier car like a Camaro? One of my friends who is good but far from professional said there are large differences in driving lines between cars like BRZ and Camaro and that's why he really prefers in-car instructions, while the track instructor(who is an ex-professional) said that it really doesn't vary much from car to car. Just looking for some feedback in that regard so I can see if I want to invest in it soon.

[SS_1LE]

Sounds normal for a track day, what I like to do is search for videos on YouTube of the track and try to watch several ones, I do this to help me one; learn the track layout. two; to learn the driving line and compare the lines to between the videos I watch. There will prob always be faster people than you regardless of what group you run. This is a very typical as I've been forced to run in a novice group because it was my first time at that track but def wasn't my first time tracking. So that could be the case too. Plus I know some people who purposely pick the slow groups so they can outrun everyone.. regardless, just have fun and be safe. Focus on the things you need to focus on to get better. It will become very enjoyable and very addicting.

[cre8fun]

yup, it's A LOT to take in. the first event you're almost always overwhelmed. lots of new info and you're needing to process it all A LOT faster than in any other situation. so that's pretty normal.

that said, the groups really want you to be safe and enjoy yourself. A lot of that equation is how you mesh with your instructor. between sessions, I've often heard instructors talking about how they don't think they're meshing with their students. clearly it goes both ways.

do another event, be very communicative with your instructor and with the chief instructor. they'll get you with someone who you'll love and it will go a long way toward getting you comfortable and getting you to really enjoy the sport.

[JeffFox]

Some great dialogue here. No need to repeat. Sounds like you are willing to try another track day. Good for you. My thoughts:

First off congratulations on bringing your car home safely. You are a winner.

How do you define fun? It is different for everyone. Hard to give you specific advice without knowing what you are looking for although I think some of the forum members have posted some thoughtful responses.

[NHills1LE]

Thanks again everybody. A lot of good advice.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by NHills1LE

Thanks guys. Lots of good suggestions here. I really think not knowing the track was the biggest obstacle--it has 19 unique curves and a number of hills, and was impossible to learn to any extent while driving at what seemed to me a high speed.

If I'd have thought to ask for advice here before I went, probably a few of you would have told me how important it is to know the track ahead of time. But as the saying goes: "You don't know--what you don't know."

There are a few things you can "sort-of" practice in your street driving that should help establish concepts of "the line". Outside-inside-outside driving through Interstate ramps and similar curves - within the limits of lane width. Putting the line through curves in sequence together so that it doesn't feel clumsy. And finding at least some semblance of an apex. Not turning in too early out of some fear that you won't be able to get in tight enough later (on the contrary, turning in too early is more likely to run you out of road on exit, and I can absolutely count on watching this happen in traffic ahead of me on certain highway ramps near where I live).

Most peoples' normal street driving doesn't understand any more about car placement within your lane than "try to keep it in the middle", which is counter to the idea of using all of your lane but no more (on the street) or all of the pavement (at the track).


As to coping with other traffic in your run group, I have some idea what that was like. My first track day ever was essentially 'open run groups' with drivers of all experience levels in cars of all preparation levels all thrown together (at least for the first session). I'd have absolutely been overloaded if I'd been in the position of having little or no idea what the driving part itself might be getting me into (autocross and on-ramp enthusiasm can count for something as long as you're consciously trying to actually learn something from it).


Norm

[kropscamaro16]

we are lucky to have alot of super nice tracks in socal all within 3 hour drive from me back in the day i only did auto x and gokart tracks and i still remember my first track day like it was yesterday at fontana which is still my home track and probably have over 10 day track there alone..alot of guys like to focus on learning at one track where alot of guys like to go to many different ones to hone their skills but most important thing is seat time !


i always like to watch youtube videos before i go to a new track to get the feel of it or if you have a sim that has that track in it thats also good help!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by NHills1LE

And though this was the novice group, there were solo drivers in the group who clearly had a lot of experience, driving heavily modded cars, who were in a screaming hurry to pass me whenever they could. It's hard to learn when you've got two or three faster cars perpetually on your rear bumper, waiting for the limited passing opportunities.

You owe cars behind you two things. Predictability and courtesy.

Predictability is you staying on your line and not doing anything sudden (another form of 'smoothness'). Courtesy is giving your point-by's when you're comfortable giving them. If the upcoming passing zone feels too short for your experience level, you're not obligated to make yourself uncomfortable (been there, at my own Event #1). Stand your ground, point him by at the next acceptable opportunity, and if the opportunity to explain yourself to the other driver arises, let him know. Most people should understand where you're coming from.


Norm

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

As to coping with other traffic in your run group, I have some idea what that was like. My first track day ever was essentially 'open run groups' with drivers of all experience levels in cars of all preparation levels all thrown together (at least for the first session). I'd have absolutely been overloaded if I'd been in the position of having little or no idea what the driving part itself might be getting me into (autocross and on-ramp enthusiasm can count for something as long as you're consciously trying to actually learn something from it).


Norm

Word of advice(and I am sure you know, but just to make it clear for people who aren't aware): don't do those open track days that are poorly organized and just throw everyone together.

After what happened at Toronto Motorsports park last year, I personally would make sure you go with a reputable motorsports group that knows what they are doing when it comes to organizing track days. There are a lot of reasons things went down the way they did, but having people of vastly different skill levels certainly is one. The fist fighting mentioned in the article happened because a newbie's CLA AMG never lets a advanced driver's BRZ pass. The CLA corners way too slowly but the BRZ, being a BRZ, doesn't have enough ponies to pass the CLA AMG in the straights. Eventually the BRZ did a pass in the corner, got waved down by a black flag and the fighting ensued. Definitely not a good time for Asian enthusiasts who know their track etiquettes, and there is definitely a lesson to be learned here.