Lansing Delta plant joined the UAW strike....

[olrocker]

This is where I kind of see both sides of the issue. If the company's profits are so exorbitant, raises should be in line with that. But you can't give people raises in unions without an approval in salary adjustments in the contract.

In non-union companies, the company can simply give employees huge raises or bonuses arbitrarily, any time they want, for whatever the company wants to give.

On the other hand, stamping trunk lids and door skins all day, or installing suspension assemblies all day, is not really a highly skilled job nor does it require a lot of training or knowledge. I'm not disparaging automotive factory work, but building a car (or anything) on an assembly line requires very little training in comparison to a skilled trade or job that requires an associates or BS or BA degree.

So the question there is: why should anyone putting a car together, who's position on the assembly line is generally mastered by anyone who walks through the door and pays attention and puts in the effort in training within a month or two, be paid anywhere close to the people who actually design and engineer the car? Those people have taken months and years worth of multiple levels of calculus, physics, and other engineering and production classes. They've studied hard, forgone many nights hanging out with friends to do homework or study for mid-terms and finals, and dedicated at least 4 years of their life to understanding engineering and design concepts that are completely foreign and impossible to anyone who hasn't.

Just like what is being developed in the fast food industry now due to people "demanding" McDonalds pay $15/hr or more, the automobile industry will find more ways to introduce robotic and automated production into the few steps remaining that require humans if the union keeps demanding large raises.

Whether you believe that is right or wrong isn't even a question. It comes down to costs and numbers in black and white on a sheet of paper.

[ZED SLED]

^ thruth! thank you!

[LeonardS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

GM is D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y shutting down the Camaro line to prepare for the build of an EV SUV. I’m not sure if there has been any public disclosure as to which one and I’d prefer not to be the one to “break the news”, although if you look hard enough I think I may have already done that somewhere.

Granted it has been years since I’ve been in LGR, but I’ve been in enough vehicle assembly plants recently (Hamtramck, Orion) to know that in cases where multiple brands / nameplates are finished in the same plants, there are often multiple spurs or feeder sub-assembly lines that may all feed into the same final assembly / dyno test line. I don’t recall if this is the case for LGR but it would make sense. In that event, GM would be able to take the plant areas focused on Camaro sub-assembly, close them off, and start conversion to the CUV EV that is to come, while still building CT4 / CT5. Hamtramck (now converted to Factory Zero #1) had that exact same setup when they were building Impala, Lacrosse, and Volt simultaneously.

I was in the Grand River Plant in July of 22. The Camaros and Cadillacs were all mated to the drivetrain and final assembled on the same line. I watched the painted bodies as they were set onto the drivetrains. Somewhere in the Plant there may have been sub assembly work, but I saw exactly where drivetrain assembly and final assembly took place. One line. No Cadillac separate from Camaro lines at that point.

[LeonardS]

Originally Posted by The Zebra

Is there enough Cadillac demand to employ all of those Camaro workers?

That I don’t know. I don’t follow Cadillac production volumes. Hopefully they have enough orders to keep people working.

[Mark114]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

GM is D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y shutting down the Camaro line to prepare for the build of an EV SUV. I’m not sure if there has been any public disclosure as to which one and I’d prefer not to be the one to “break the news”, although if you look hard enough I think I may have already done that somewhere.

Lots of speculation on the internet over the past few years that LGR will build Corvette EV and/or Corvette EV SUV, as well as Cadillac and Buick EV SUVs.

[The Zebra]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

GM is D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y shutting down the Camaro line to prepare for the build of an EV SUV. I’m not sure if there has been any public disclosure as to which one and I’d prefer not to be the one to “break the news”, although if you look hard enough I think I may have already done that somewhere.

Granted it has been years since I’ve been in LGR, but I’ve been in enough vehicle assembly plants recently (Hamtramck, Orion) to know that in cases where multiple brands / nameplates are finished in the same plants, there are often multiple spurs or feeder sub-assembly lines that may all feed into the same final assembly / dyno test line. I don’t recall if this is the case for LGR but it would make sense. In that event, GM would be able to take the plant areas focused on Camaro sub-assembly, close them off, and start conversion to the CUV EV that is to come, while still building CT4 / CT5. Hamtramck (now converted to Factory Zero #1) had that exact same setup when they were building Impala, Lacrosse, and Volt simultaneously.

I see, that makes sense, very cool set-up. They must have amazing Manufacturing Engineering and Industrial Engineering departments.

Seems like they will be over staffed after the Camaro goes away; at least until they're ready to start building some new model vehicle. All of those thousands of hours a month spent building Camaro's will need go somewhere.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by olrocker

This is where I kind of see both sides of the issue. If the company's profits are so exorbitant, raises should be in line with that. But you can't give people raises in unions without an approval in salary adjustments in the contract.

In non-union companies, the company can simply give employees huge raises or bonuses arbitrarily, any time they want, for whatever the company wants to give.

On the other hand, stamping trunk lids and door skins all day, or installing suspension assemblies all day, is not really a highly skilled job nor does it require a lot of training or knowledge. I'm not disparaging automotive factory work, but building a car (or anything) on an assembly line requires very little training in comparison to a skilled trade or job that requires an associates or BS or BA degree.

So the question there is: why should anyone putting a car together, who's position on the assembly line is generally mastered by anyone who walks through the door and pays attention and puts in the effort in training within a month or two, be paid anywhere close to the people who actually design and engineer the car? Those people have taken months and years worth of multiple levels of calculus, physics, and other engineering and production classes. They've studied hard, forgone many nights hanging out with friends to do homework or study for mid-terms and finals, and dedicated at least 4 years of their life to understanding engineering and design concepts that are completely foreign and impossible to anyone who hasn't.

Just like what is being developed in the fast food industry now due to people "demanding" McDonalds pay $15/hr or more, the automobile industry will find more ways to introduce robotic and automated production into the few steps remaining that require humans if the union keeps demanding large raises.

Whether you believe that is right or wrong isn't even a question. It comes down to costs and numbers in black and white on a sheet of paper.

Pointing out some easily proven facts:

1. Accounting for inflation, $15/hr is less than what minimum wage was back in the 70's and 80's.

2. One could argue that if you really wanted to save money, you could move 100% of auto production out of the country. One could also argue that highly educated people in other countries can even do the jobs of highly educated American workers. Why pay any American for what you can get elsewhere? I bet you could get someone in India to do Mary Bara's job for 300,000 rather than the 30 million paid to Bara.

3. Sooner or later, when real wages are driven down to match those of the third world, you wont have any customers.

From the history I've read, unions came to be because wages of the time would not support a decent standard of living. It would seen we are heading back there. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised to see an expansion of unions again, especially since the recent 30% inflation has reduced real wages.

[The Zebra]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Pointing out some easily proven facts:

1. Accounting for inflation, $15/hr is less than what minimum wage was back in the 70's and 80's.

Per US Dept of Labor, minimum wage was $2.10 in 1975. Per US Gov Inflation Calculator, $15 in 2023 would have been $3.45 in 1975, which is 164% more, not less.

Didn't read past that point, because facts are already wrong.

[The Zebra]

Originally Posted by olrocker

This is where I kind of see both sides of the issue. If the company's profits are so exorbitant, raises should be in line with that. But you can't give people raises in unions without an approval in salary adjustments in the contract.

In non-union companies, the company can simply give employees huge raises or bonuses arbitrarily, any time they want, for whatever the company wants to give.

On the other hand, stamping trunk lids and door skins all day, or installing suspension assemblies all day, is not really a highly skilled job nor does it require a lot of training or knowledge. I'm not disparaging automotive factory work, but building a car (or anything) on an assembly line requires very little training in comparison to a skilled trade or job that requires an associates or BS or BA degree.

So the question there is: why should anyone putting a car together, who's position on the assembly line is generally mastered by anyone who walks through the door and pays attention and puts in the effort in training within a month or two, be paid anywhere close to the people who actually design and engineer the car? Those people have taken months and years worth of multiple levels of calculus, physics, and other engineering and production classes. They've studied hard, forgone many nights hanging out with friends to do homework or study for mid-terms and finals, and dedicated at least 4 years of their life to understanding engineering and design concepts that are completely foreign and impossible to anyone who hasn't.

Just like what is being developed in the fast food industry now due to people "demanding" McDonalds pay $15/hr or more, the automobile industry will find more ways to introduce robotic and automated production into the few steps remaining that require humans if the union keeps demanding large raises.

Whether you believe that is right or wrong isn't even a question. It comes down to costs and numbers in black and white on a sheet of paper.

Right on

[Z06ZLE]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

One could argue that if you really wanted to save money, you could move 100% of auto production out of the country. One could also argue that highly educated people in other countries can even do the jobs of highly educated American workers. Why pay any American for what you can get elsewhere? I bet you could get someone in India to do Mary Bara's job for 300,000 rather than the 30 million paid to Bara.

I remember that not too long ago, there was a meme floating around the internet that was essentially a screenshot of a question somebody had asked one of the AI LLMs (large language models) like ChatGPT. It essentially went like this:

"what are the first jobs in corporate America that AI can take over and do better right now?"

The answer: CEOs.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Pointing out some easily proven facts:

1. Accounting for inflation, $15/hr is less than what minimum wage was back in the 70's and 80's.

2. One could argue that if you really wanted to save money, you could move 100% of auto production out of the country. One could also argue that highly educated people in other countries can even do the jobs of highly educated American workers. Why pay any American for what you can get elsewhere? I bet you could get someone in India to do Mary Bara's job for 300,000 rather than the 30 million paid to Bara.

3. Sooner or later, when real wages are driven down to match those of the third world, you wont have any customers.

From the history I've read, unions came to be because wages of the time would not support a decent standard of living. It would seen we are heading back there. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised to see an expansion of unions again, especially since the recent 30% inflation has reduced real wages.

LOL I could do Mary Barry’s job but the question is, as a stockholder, would you want me to. If they didn’t think she was worth $30 million they wouldn’t pay her.

And wages are a Lonnnnng way from 3rd world. GM plants in Mexico I think with the latest deal may be $7?? UAW today is making SIGNIFICANTLY more than the competitors do in the US (Smyrna, Chatanooga, Marysville, on and on) that arguably make higher per quality products.

The Union is clearly not engaged in ensuring the employers stay competitive and have the ability to build qualit6 products. As long as you hear the UAW ignoring or dismissing discussion on absenteeism you will know this is the case. Lol they said, I’d you pay us for 40 hours but only ask us to work 32 hours absenteeism should BE LESS. Not go away, but simply be better. 20% of the workers with really good wages and a pension WITH healthcare don’t even show up every day. So GM has to employee 20% extra workers. Have you heard the union even suggest to GM or Ford, “hey, we can get the workers to actually show up if you will just give that extra 20% of waste to the workers? Nope

And by the way, it is a hard job. Relentless and repetitive. Yes with breaks they work 6 1/2 hours and get paid for 8 (wait and they want to work 32 and get paid for 40?? They get that now I guess so what is the ask?). I’ve worked on the line and it’s hard work.

[Big Lou 1le]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9&opi=89978449

How many of you all remember this. Goes along what olrocker was saying. Seems not much skill is needed.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And by the way, it is a hard job. Relentless and repetitive. Yes with breaks they work 6 1/2 hours and get paid for 8 (wait and they want to work 32 and get paid for 40?? They get that now I guess so what is the ask?). I’ve worked on the line and it’s hard work.

Lots of jobs in America are hard, relentless, and repetitive. Typically your jobs that require minimal training, skill, or education are.

Few of them pay much better than $15/hr. And there’s good reason. Because it’s not worth it. Someone quits? There’s 10 others willing to sign up, with no education or background, and they can be trained quickly.

Again, this isn’t an opinion meant to knock assembly line workers even though I’m sure they and maybe you might take it as such. It’s just the truth.

Like my Grandpa who worked in a DuPont chemical plant on the shore where Lake Erie and Cuyahoga River meet making soda silicate from 1946-1982 told me: if you don’t want health problems but want to make lots of money when you’re older, get trained or get an education. Without that you’ll be sick and poor and waiting for your social security check like me.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by The Zebra

Per US Dept of Labor, minimum wage was $2.10 in 1975. Per US Gov Inflation Calculator, $15 in 2023 would have been $3.45 in 1975, which is 164% more, not less.

Didn't read past that point, because facts are already wrong.

A government inflation calculator would be the dead last thing I would use for calculating inflation and the CPI inflation calculations are on the low side when comparing the historical prices of everyday goods and commodities.
Still, even that results in a minimum wage of over $12/hr