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Old 05-27-2024, 02:21 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Evergreen6 View Post
Yeah and GM gave us a mid-engined Corvette with supercar numbers for less than $100k. 5G Copo, Z28, 6th Gen Camaro, ZL1. Cadillac performance models. ZR2's. Hummer EV. There's a lot of boldness and f*ing trends therein, just not under a Pontiac badge--because it's dead.

John Delorean succumbed to a crack habit and was busted for smuggling cocaine and his car company never went anywhere. He was probably safer to stick with GM, as he was a former employee in the Pontiac division.
We will never agree on the C8 either. GM didn’t need to make a $100,000 Ferrari impersonator. They needed to make a Corvette. As a Corvette family (my Mom owns a 2016 Stingray w/Z51 package) and my uncle owns two (‘74 350 4 speed t-top and 2013 6-speed 427 convertible) I can tell you the C8 is now for kids with fire money than brains. Real Corvettes are long hood/short decks with front engines.

DeLorean was set up by the feds. He was acquitted. Did he make questionable choices? Maybe. But his rap was irreparably harmed unfairly. He was a brilliant product specialist and a bronze statue of him belongs at the main entrance of GM along with Harley Earl’s and Bill Mitchell’s.

His worst mistake was trying to set up his car production in Ireland in the middle of their labor wars. He should have looked at any of many other much better, more stable countries at the time.
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Old 05-27-2024, 09:59 PM   #58
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John Delorean succumbed to a crack habit and was busted for smuggling cocaine and his car company never went anywhere. He was probably safer to stick with GM, as he was a former employee in the Pontiac division.
JZD was framed in a set up sting operation
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Old 05-27-2024, 10:39 PM   #59
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Firebird/TA always looked much more aggressive and meaner than Camaro. Grand Prix W-Bodies looked far more performance oriented than any other W-Body cousin. The G8 looked more 3-Series-esque than any other sedan GM sold in America.
Cool that you noticed that. That’s exactly what they were aiming for.

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My point is Pontiac did a great job differentiating their style enough to make them stand out and be unique. There was enough differentiation in the original GTO after 1964 when it became its own model that even my Mom could tell the difference between a GTO and a Tempest by a simple quick glance.

GM did the 04-06 GTO wrong by simply making a “Pontiac” front clip on the Monaro. More aggressive and attention-grabbing design would have increased sales (as well as better advertising and promotion).
A lot going on around this one. The fact that there ever was a Zeta platform GTO or G8 comes back to Bob Lutz and Tom Stephens. Tom was the head of Powertrain and he and Bob were buddies. They were trying to fill the gap created by Camaro end of production. They swung a deal with Holden (GM’s Australian unit) to import the Monaro as the GTO. Several issues though. Since the plan was to import the car completely assembled, there was a cap on the number of cars that could be imported. I don’t remember what it was but I think it was about 30,000 cars. Not enough to justify a program, but they got it done anyway. Catch was, there would be no engineering beyond what was required to meet crash test, fuel economy standards, and emissions regulations. Therefore, no work on design beyond Pontiac fascia. It did lead to more conversation around using Zeta platform for Camaro and the eventual build of a module in Oshawa to produce Camaro 5. Ironically, the way they got that through the bureaucracy was not too different than the way DeLorean got the first GTO through by making it a variant of the Tempest grandmother’s car.

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Makes cars that people want because they grab people’s attention. Cars that make people WANT to run out to their nearest dealer to look at a new car any time. Not just when they need a new car. Not because they have 11 cup holders and a $299/mo lease special.

People are holding on to cars longer now be because they’re more reliable and last longer than they ever have.

Want to increase sales again? It’s not that hard: make cars people want!
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Old 05-28-2024, 07:41 AM   #60
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We will never agree on the C8 either. GM didn’t need to make a $100,000 Ferrari impersonator. They needed to make a Corvette. As a Corvette family (my Mom owns a 2016 Stingray w/Z51 package) and my uncle owns two (‘74 350 4 speed t-top and 2013 6-speed 427 convertible) I can tell you the C8 is now for kids with fire money than brains. Real Corvettes are long hood/short decks with front engines.
Then how would you move the Corvette forward? Front engine layout was at its limit if you wanted to keep it RWD.

The C7 Z06 and ZR1 were just itching to kill you at the limit because of how traction limited they were.

And this car with this engine wouldn't be in my garage right now if there weren't any car enthusiasts at GM or limited by the bean counters. If the bean counters determined the engine for the C8 Z06, the LT6 would be a mid-engined adapted LT4 like the LT2 is a mid-engine adapted LT1. It wouldn't be bespoke.

C8 being for kids is what Corvette needs or do you want it to die with your generation? Notice the great reduction of the average age of Corvette owners since the C8 came out?

I am not saying you need to like the C8, but it has done a lot of good for the Corvette brand.
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Old 05-28-2024, 08:17 AM   #61
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Then how would you move the Corvette forward? Front engine layout was at its limit if you wanted to keep it RWD.

The C7 Z06 and ZR1 were just itching to kill you at the limit because of how traction limited they were.

And this car with this engine wouldn't be in my garage right now if there weren't any car enthusiasts at GM or limited by the bean counters. If the bean counters determined the engine for the C8 Z06, the LT6 would be a mid-engined adapted LT4 like the LT2 is a mid-engine adapted LT1. It wouldn't be bespoke.

C8 being for kids is what Corvette needs or do you want it to die with your generation? Notice the great reduction of the average age of Corvette owners since the C8 came out?

I am not saying you need to like the C8, but it has done a lot of good for the Corvette brand.
It’s a great performance car. They made a great car. I’ll never question that. It is a fantastic imitation of a Ferrari for 1/3rd the price. Put them next to each other and you see where they wanted to take the car.

It’s just not a Corvette. The true American Corvette died in 2019
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Old 05-28-2024, 08:26 AM   #62
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It’s a great performance car. They made a great car. I’ll never question that. It is a fantastic imitation of a Ferrari for 1/3rd the price. Put them next to each other and you see where they wanted to take the car.

It’s just not a Corvette. The true American Corvette died in 2019
So what would you have done for the C8 instead?

Just did what Dodge did and throw in more HP to a platform that couldn't handle it? Fine for straight line, but horrible for a sports car like the 'Vette.
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Old 05-28-2024, 09:05 AM   #63
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A lot going on around this one. The fact that there ever was a Zeta platform GTO or G8 comes back to Bob Lutz and Tom Stephens. Tom was the head of Powertrain and he and Bob were buddies. They were trying to fill the gap created by Camaro end of production. They swung a deal with Holden (GM’s Australian unit) to import the Monaro as the GTO. Several issues though. Since the plan was to import the car completely assembled, there was a cap on the number of cars that could be imported. I don’t remember what it was but I think it was about 30,000 cars. Not enough to justify a program, but they got it done anyway. Catch was, there would be no engineering beyond what was required to meet crash test, fuel economy standards, and emissions regulations. Therefore, no work on design beyond Pontiac fascia. It did lead to more conversation around using Zeta platform for Camaro and the eventual build of a module in Oshawa to produce Camaro 5. Ironically, the way they got that through the bureaucracy was not too different than the way DeLorean got the first GTO through by making it a variant of the Tempest grandmother’s car.
Martin beat me to it. I was going to say that IIRC the SS and GTO were never meant to be big sellers as their was limits on how many they could bring in and sell.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 05-28-2024, 10:46 AM   #64
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So what would you have done for the C8 instead?

Just did what Dodge did and throw in more HP to a platform that couldn't handle it? Fine for straight line, but horrible for a sports car like the 'Vette.
No you design a completely new platform but keep it front (but mid) engine. Front-mid engine like a Mercedes SLS AMG. Move the engine behind the front axle, gearbox in the rear, still gives you the perfect center of gravity and improved high power 600+ hp performance on the track.

A true fully independent, high teach, sophisticated suspension, massive brakes, massive lightweight wheel options….. you’d still get C8 performance and handling but the engine would be in front of the driver where it belongs and you’d still have the long hood/shirt deck classics look of a real Corvette. Instead of the short hood/long deck that it is now.
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Old 05-28-2024, 10:57 AM   #65
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No you design a completely new platform but keep it front (but mid) engine. Front-mid engine like a Mercedes SLS AMG. Move the engine behind the front axle, gearbox in the rear, still gives you the perfect center of gravity and improved high power 600+ hp performance on the track.

A true fully independent, high teach, sophisticated suspension, massive brakes, massive lightweight wheel options….. you’d still get C8 performance and handling but the engine would be in front of the driver where it belongs and you’d still have the long hood/shirt deck classics look of a real Corvette. Instead of the short hood/long deck that it is now.
Isn't that what corvette had already been doing? Isn't the engine in the C7 already behind the front axle with a rear mounted gearbox?
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 05-28-2024, 11:05 AM   #66
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Isn't that what corvette had already been doing? Isn't the engine in the C7 already behind the front axle with a rear mounted gearbox?
Kind of. The front two cylinders are still over the axle line. I mean moving the engine back another 2-4 inches. With a new chassis they could easily fit it under the cowl. Mercedes did it with a 12 cylinder none-the-less and that was 10 years ago so I am quite sure a proper chassis could be made.

That Mercedes still is one of the all time track greats, with a 600 hp V12. They did it 10 years ago.

If Mercedes wanted to imitate Ferrari and make that car rear-mid engine they absolutely could and would have.
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Old 05-28-2024, 11:33 AM   #67
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A lot of us like the C8. Knocking it in a forum full of enthusiasts probably isn't going to get a lot of support.
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Old 05-28-2024, 11:59 AM   #68
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The C7 Z06 and ZR1 were just itching to kill you at the limit because of how traction limited they were.

C8 being for kids is what Corvette needs or do you want it to die with your generation? Notice the great reduction of the average age of Corvette owners since the C8 came out?

I am not saying you need to like the C8, but it has done a lot of good for the Corvette brand.
I agree hp has reached a point in factory offerings that streets, traffic, and tires can't keep up with. When I read of folks wanting to be cars and coffee hero's with their dyno numbers and the $$$ that cost and inability to really use it on the streets I shake my head.
They did a fantastic job making it look and perform as it does. I love that paint color I prefer it's looks to the other far more expensive brands.


I wanted to get one but 3 things stopped me
price wasn't at all what they advertised it to be
reliability plays a huge factor in my decision and major trans and engine failures reported by some made it a no for me
I have aged out of sports cars, I don't need to explain what that is


As I stared in awe at the posted car I felt a strong pontiac vibe to the nose. And here we are in a pontiac thread
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Old 05-28-2024, 12:12 PM   #69
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A lot of us like the C8. Knocking it in a forum full of enthusiasts probably isn't going to get a lot of support.
Yet here I am. Also an enthusiast. I will absolutely knock something that deserves to be knocked. But you also need to learn to read and comprehend what I say. Not just what you want to hear. Or what you think I’m saying.

Never once did I question the performance of the C8.
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Old 05-28-2024, 12:35 PM   #70
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It’s just not a Corvette. The true American Corvette died in 2019
Zora Arkus-Duntov, the father of the Corvette, wanted it to go mid-engine in the sixties! So wherever he is he is smiling and happy that the car is now what he wanted all along.

Would Zora think the C8 is a real Corvette? I'm sure he would think that it is finally a real Corvette.
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