[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are correct, charging away from home does currently cost more than charging at home. You are at that point paying for someone else's infrastructure investment and profit.

And, that is is fair for them to make some money on the deal. I have zero problem with that. Studies show that charging away from home will cost more than a tank of gas.

Originally Posted by Number 3

As for power outages? Have to keep reminding people if you can't charge your car, you can't pump gas either.

That is valid. My point is when the power comes back on I have to wait a couple of hours to charge he battery. ICE is refueled in 5 minutes.

Granted, generally speaking, power outages for any length of time are rare.

Originally Posted by Number 3

And no one if forcing you to buy an EV just the same as no one forcing you to buy a flip phone. You can still get one and it will work, but the only thing forcing people to smart phones is the technology itself.

That's apples and oranges. The reason flip phones are going away is due to the fact that there are only so many frequencies available in the ionosphere. It is a physical limit.

The limit on ICE is purely contrived by people (i.e. government force)
The FE and emissions are intentionally set more and more stringent to force the alternative (EV) to artificially be more economically feasible/justifiable.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Your concerns are all valid, but there are 100s of thousands of people going to work every day to improve on them. That's why I'm confident they will get resolved. I trust capitalism and engineering

I have no doubt some of these current problems can be overcome. And like I said, if you want one, and have the means to buy one, be able to own it.

The disconnect we seem to be having is... I DO NOT WANT ONE!
Every "mouse trap" has its pros and cons. Maybe EV's change in the future and I change my view. Who knows?

The BIGGEST problem I have is I am not being given a choice on what is best for me. By 2030 GM will no longer give me an option.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Remember just 5 years ago the biggest concern was range. Thats been addressed. Now it's charging time. As I mentioned, the magazine that did the cross country trip planned it around charging and spent only 2 1/2 hours charging. Everyone that uses charging time vs. gasoline fill up time generally think they doing a NACAR pit stop. If I'm on a road trip and stop for gas every 250 miles or so it's a 15 minute stop. So the only issue that needs to be resolved is now I'm at the "pump" for 15 minutes. For a gas stop, I'm only at the pump for 5 and as a courteous driver I then park for the other 10. So there is that logistics issue that needs to be addressed. And Jim's pyramid of intellect says that if you and I are smart enough to talk about it, there is someone higher on the pyramid that is smart enough to solve it.

It depends on what your viewpoint is... LOL

It's a 100 mile round trip for me to get from my house to a "major" metropolitan area. Freind of mine drive further. So, realistically, driving to Costco, running errands, and the drive home would need a recharge.

It's already a 4 hour event minimum. Then I have to wait for charging. Except, I have to wait for an open spot to get a charger because everyone else is fighting for limited spots. Then, I have to pay 2-3x the rates to "get gas"

It just isn't practical. And, at what expense is Costco going to put in 50 chargers?

More incoming power, underground wiring, panels and sub panels, plus the actual charging interface. What's the solution?

Government subsidies/mandates? That isn't capitalism or free markets...

Now, there is talk of "roadway charging stations" that charge your car magnetically as you drive. The Feds are planning on subsidizing states to modify stretches of road, so I'm already paying for construction.

Who pays for the electricity?
Where is this all going?

In short, there are a lot of obstacles that need to be overcome before this technology is forced on the public. THAT is why I'm against this more than being scared of technology or being political.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Newcastle

EV is a nail in the American car coffin. It is also enriching China! America does not have rights to mine the minerals it takes for batteries. I really don't understand how or why we are allowing this to happen. This world will be a much different place when I leave than when I was born.

You do realize this is true for everyone born in the last 1,000 years or so, right?

You are correct, but it's not a nail in the coffin level moment. But it lets a whole lot of players in the game that otherwise wouldn't or couldn't be.

As I've mentioned previously, EVs take the cost of entering the automotive business to a much lower level. The amount of money it takes to design, engineer and develop an engine and transmission that meets performance targets as well as FE and Emissions (same thing really) targets is astronomical. Even if you buy your transmissions from a supplier that has one of the shelf (ZF), the development costs for calibration are still huge. EVs essentially eliminate that investment. From experience, bending sheet metal for a body isn't easy, but it's simply capital for dies and robots for a body shop (over simplified of course) but it's the same for everyone. And there are a lot of great companies that today will do a body and interior for you.

Vietnam of all countries now has EVs they intend to bring to the US market.

China is a bigger deal, but not because of mining rights. It's a bigger deal because our EVs won't ever be sold there unless they are built there, but shortly, Americans will lap up Chinese made EVs, well because America. It's what we do. The biggest auto market in the world, double ours, is essentially closed. And yes, GM sells a crap ton of Buicks there, but the profit is minimal due to how China handles outside companies.

[Newcastle]

Well we had V8 when I was born but they won't be here when I leave.
Of coarse Korea has EV but again we are baseing a car off a power source we can't produce. Not very smart IMO.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by pauly1119

Life is too short to drive a leaf, just my 2 cents. Honestly if the car was 2500 I wouldn't do it.

Well there's no way in hell I'm going to drive my Camaro to the grocery store and have some derp open their door into my car. Hell the winds today are whipping around at about 30-40 MPH. All it takes is one asshat that isn't being careful to let the wind take their door. And this is speaking from experience. When I bought a 2006 new GTO, a co-worker of mine let their door swing open into my door. Didn't even have the car new for a month and it was already damaged.

The other reason I decided to go with a leaf instead of some run of the mill car, if gas prices go high, the Camaro can stay parked, the leaf won't need to stay parked. I probably could've just as well gone with a Tesla for about $10K more, but I knew that I wanted to get the ZL1 and I would rather put that $10K towards a higher trim level of Camaro than going from a cheap Leaf to a Tesla.

But I'm 100% with you, if this was my only car I don't think I could live with the Leaf unless I lived in NYC or some other very horribly cramped area.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

There is NO WAY a device being served by a 50A breaker, being used 4-8 hours a day, is only going to raise your bill only $20. NO WAY.
Think of an A/C unit on the same size breaker (which actually doesn't run the full hour). It costs WAY more than $20 a month. Try 10x (+) that. The only way that would be possible is if you didn't drive the car much, or had home solar credits/offset (because there is no solar at night lol)

Also, did you figure the 3K(ish) for the charger and installation in the "average fuel economy"?

Oh, btw, your sig said you sold the Model 3...

So, my wife and I use the Tesla Model 3 for daily stuff and she uses to drive to work and back during the week. We average about 35-50 miles per day. We have the standard range Model 3 that has a 50KWh battery and gets about 225 miles on a full charge, about 240 when the battery was brand new. On EVs the best practice is to charge to 90% and recharge before you get below 20%.

Anyway, figure 225 miles/50kwh so roughly 4.5 miles per KWh. So on a day we drive 50 miles we use up about 11KWh. The electricity in my area costs 13 cent per Kwh. So, to top off, or add that 50 miles back costs about $1.43 in electricity for the day. With the 50 amp circuits this "top off" takes about 1.5 hours. If we were to "fill it up" so to speak to max charge of 225 miles from 0% it would cost ~$7 in electricity. We have had the car for 3 years now so I am very familiar with the charging cost. Some days we just top it off for a $1 or so and then sometimes go 2-3 days before charging. $20-$25 per month on average is what the electric bill went up.

As for the charger itself, the AC/DC charger in actually in the car itself. All you need is an available circuit in your service panel and a NEMA-50 outlet. If you are nearby the service panel this only costs a couple hundred bucks for an electrician to do. I had room for a 50amp circuit so I added it, which nets you 32 miles per hour on the standard Model 3 and up to 44 miles per hour on the Long Range models if you use a 60amp circuit.

As for the Model 3 Performance listed in my signature. That was a 2nd Model 3 Performance that I sold because I missed the raw v8 performance. The Model 3 Performance is a very good car but like most on here I enjoy the visceral experience you get from the Camaro, especially the ZL1. The standard Model 3 is my wife's primary car that we share. I like the setup we have now, as I get to enjoy the best of both worlds. Low operating costs and easy one pedal driving of an EV and then the rawness of the ZL1 race car when the mood strikes.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Malbjey

Hmm, I don't think that's too much of a concern. The main draw of the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger has always been cheap speed. They punch way above their price range when it comes to speed.



I think that will still hold true when it comes to them being EVs. All the truly ridiculous fast EVs come at premium $$$ right now. If GM, Ford and Dodge can keep the cost of entry down (relative to other fast EVs), then what's the difference?



The Camaro SS 1LE is routinely compared to the BMW M cars which cost 10K+, 20K+, etc more. Yet people are happy with their SS purchases because they save so much money even if the M cars might be a little faster. We should be applying that same logic to EVs.

Agreed. I also think the styling will play a big factor. Most EVs to date look ridiculous but Tesla was the first to really have a 4 door sedan that doesn't look all that bad to most people. Some folks like myself will miss the sound and vibration you get from a performance car but most of the industry will sacrifice this for the operating cost savings, (fuel, fluid changes, etc.)

Like you said, they will need to keep the cost down but new EV entries right now are ridiculously priced. It will take some time until they can get the economics right. This is why you have to be impressed with Tesla for being able to sell a $45k Model 3 in volume now at a profit. GM and others will probably keep launching the premium priced EV models at first and trickle down. This is what Tesla had to do for years with the Model S and X. They were almost bankrupt with the launch of the Model 3 but they survived and are now quite profitable.

[zxspeedspec]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

Well there's no way in hell I'm going to drive my Camaro to the grocery store and have some derp open their door into my car. Hell the winds today are whipping around at about 30-40 MPH. All it takes is one asshat that isn't being careful to let the wind take their door. And this is speaking from experience. When I bought a 2006 new GTO, a co-worker of mine let their door swing open into my door. Didn't even have the car new for a month and it was already damaged.

I've got 360 dashcams. If someone dents my door, I'm calling insurance, getting a brand new door, filing diminished value claim, and then Lambo dooring my Camaro.

[pauly1119]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

Well there's no way in hell I'm going to drive my Camaro to the grocery store and have some derp open their door into my car. Hell the winds today are whipping around at about 30-40 MPH. All it takes is one asshat that isn't being careful to let the wind take their door. And this is speaking from experience. When I bought a 2006 new GTO, a co-worker of mine let their door swing open into my door. Didn't even have the car new for a month and it was already damaged.

The other reason I decided to go with a leaf instead of some run of the mill car, if gas prices go high, the Camaro can stay parked, the leaf won't need to stay parked. I probably could've just as well gone with a Tesla for about $10K more, but I knew that I wanted to get the ZL1 and I would rather put that $10K towards a higher trim level of Camaro than going from a cheap Leaf to a Tesla.

But I'm 100% with you, if this was my only car I don't think I could live with the Leaf unless I lived in NYC or some other very horribly cramped area.

I understand where your coming from, I have a C5 Z06 that’s for getting caught in the rain and taking it shopping. I don’t take my Camaro out to stores or in bad weather. Maybe throw a LS3 in that Leaf. Just kidding I didn’t intend to sound like there is something wrong with it.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

It's a 100 mile round trip for me to get from my house to a "major" metropolitan area. Freind of mine drive further. So, realistically, driving to Costco, running errands, and the drive home would need a recharge.

It's already a 4 hour event minimum. Then I have to wait for charging. Except, I have to wait for an open spot to get a charger because everyone else is fighting for limited spots. Then, I have to pay 2-3x the rates to "get gas"

It just isn't practical. And, at what expense is Costco going to put in 50 chargers?

More incoming power, underground wiring, panels and sub panels, plus the actual charging interface. What's the solution?

Government subsidies/mandates? That isn't capitalism or free markets...

Now, there is talk of "roadway charging stations" that charge your car magnetically as you drive. The Feds are planning on subsidizing states to modify stretches of road, so I'm already paying for construction.

Who pays for the electricity?
Where is this all going?

In short, there are a lot of obstacles that need to be overcome before this technology is forced on the public. THAT is why I'm against this more than being scared of technology or being political.

I agree with you that there is lots of charging infrastructure that needs to be deployed but as someone who has been living with an EV for the past 3 years now it is not as challenging as you are making it out to be.

Most new EVs will now come with north of 300 miles of range. This is more range than I get with a full tank in my ZL1. You drive your 100 or so miles for the day and you still have 150-200 miles of range left. You plug in when you go to bed and start the day with a "full tank" and ready to go. If you want to go on a road trip the car tells you where to charge and how long it will take. If you use a fast charger/supercharger you charge at 250kW in 15-25 minutes. I get the range anxiety concerns but it really isn't an issue in reality.

I would be more concerned of what the battery warranty is. On Tesla you get 8 year 120k mile warranty on the battery and drive units. I would not want to own an EV out of battery warranty since they cost about $12-$15k right now to replace.

[FarmerFran]

Well, it could be the end of Dodge's "reign" at the top...

Jim Morrison of Stellantis was asked at the Chicago Autoshow, He was asked about the new twin turbo inline 6 by Autoblog and he responded, are you going to New York.

So the rumor is they will announce the new motor then...should be interesting.

Currently the rumor is it supposed to be a 3liter, inline 6 twin turbo with a 48V hybrid.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I own a ZL1 and Tesla Model 3. The Tesla does most of the the daily driving, which it is ideally suited for. We charge it at home in the garage on a 50 amp circuit. Charge rate is 32 miles per hour. Electricity cost is 12 cents per Kwh in my area. The Tesla has a 50kwh battery. Our electric bill only went up about $20 per month vs the $225 per month we were paying in gas in the GMC Acadia.

They ride smoother, effortless power with gobs of instant torque, cool tech, over the air updates, lower operating costs, etc. hard to beat for a daily. The ZL1 is there to fill the void that an EV can’t fill. The noise, vibration, rise and fall of the rpm, shifting through gears, etc.

That's the way to do it! My future plans looks a lot like this.

[rocket403]

Here is a great 20 min Video explaining the charging problem, from 290 mile range, cost, to the 4 different charger types that are used and how some cars don't have access to those outlets.
Also you wouldn't be able to drive from Denver to Dallas in an EV as there would be a dead zone. Never thought of some of these issues.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by zxspeedspec

I've got 360 dashcams. If someone dents my door, I'm calling insurance, getting a brand new door, filing diminished value claim, and then Lambo dooring my Camaro.

I had my dashcam running when an 18-wheeler hauling gravel was making a turn around a mix master with "clover" turns. His lane was supposed to yield to my lane which was just exiting the highway, but this asshat tried to go faster until he figured he was coming too fast and I was already in the lane. He applied his brakes, his load shifted, and gravel peppered the passenger side of my car. I called the police and followed him for about 5 miles but the police would not dispatch anyone while the 18-wheeler refused to stop. I even got the trailer's license plate on my dashcam. I called my insurance company hoping that they would pursue the idiot, but all they did was charge me my $500 deductible for a $1700 paint job. This happened a few months after I purchased my vehicle new in 2016. Geico (my insurance company at the time) claimed that even though I had recorded the incident, that they wouldn't pursue the driver. They figured it was cheaper to just hit my policy with the damage costs. I traded that vehicle in just yesterday and still took a hit on it financially as CarFax listed the insurance claim as an "accident". Have been off of Geico ever since.

Originally Posted by pauly1119

I understand where your coming from, I have a C5 Z06 that’s for getting caught in the rain and taking it shopping. I don’t take my Camaro out to stores or in bad weather. Maybe throw a LS3 in that Leaf. Just kidding I didn’t intend to sound like there is something wrong with it.

I think I may have to become an ambassador to the EV market, even with my lowly, sad Leaf. The instant torque is something that needs to be experienced by even the most die-hard ICE fan. If the EV industry can find a way to improve charging time while keeping things safe, I think that ICE's days are even shorter than we think. My SS Sedan, and now my ZL1 have a great feel under hard acceleration, but they still both take time to get into their TQ band. The Leaf is just instantaneous. I will say that the torque steer is quite annoying, but I love the feel of squirting that silly car ahead of some BMW 3-series that pulled up beside me at the light because he figured he could jump ahead of me to make the turn he wants from the lane I'm in. Being dickish to a BMW driver attempting a dickish move is what it's all about.

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Well, it could be the end of Dodge's "reign" at the top...

Jim Morrison of Stellantis was asked at the Chicago Autoshow, He was asked about the new twin turbo inline 6 by Autoblog and he responded, are you going to New York.

So the rumor is they will announce the new motor then...should be interesting.

Currently the rumor is it supposed to be a 3liter, inline 6 twin turbo with a 48V hybrid.

I don't know, considering the new Nissan Z has a TTV6 and will have similar performance numbers to the ZL1 per this article I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss V6's. I was tempted to jump onto a CT4-V blackwing, but I figure if I'm going to have the performance I want, I also want the loud bark of a proper V8, and the CT5-V blackwing's cost for the same engine that's in the Camaro didn't make sense to me. It will be sad to see another V8 gone, but if you can get the same performance with a savings on fuel economy, that tends to be the "sexy" thing these days. My question would be durability, but given that it's a Stellantis durability is already out the window.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I think I may have to become an ambassador to the EV market, even with my lowly, sad Leaf. The instant torque is something that needs to be experienced by even the most die-hard ICE fan. If the EV industry can find a way to improve charging time while keeping things safe, I think that ICE's days are even shorter than we think. My SS Sedan, and now my ZL1 have a great feel under hard acceleration, but they still both take time to get into their TQ band. The Leaf is just instantaneous. I will say that the torque steer is quite annoying, but I love the feel of squirting that silly car ahead of some BMW 3-series that pulled up beside me at the light because he figured he could jump ahead of me to make the turn he wants from the lane I'm in. Being dickish to a BMW driver attempting a dickish move is what it's all about.

Yep, my Tesla Model 3 Performance would roast my ZL1 to 60mph but then the ZL1 would start pulling on it pretty hard until we both cross the 1/4 mile at about the same mid 11s timeframe. The Tesla would trap at about 116mph and the ZL1 should be ~125mph. This is where gearing of ICE provides an advantage over a single speed EV trans as speed increases. Even my slower Standard Range Model 3 will take my ZL1 until about 30-40mph or so. So, on the street EVs will be king of the stoplight.

I agree that most who are dissing on EVs will be very surprised at how quick they are and what it feels like to have a single speed transmission with no need to shift or get into the torque sweet spot.

What EVs lack right now is the drama you get from ICE based performance vehicles. The exhaust note, the burnouts, the drive modes, the engagement from rowing your own gears or flipping the paddles, relaxing the nannies so the car is more playful, etc. That said, I am interested in something like the C8 E-Ray, where you can combine some of the benefits of electric instant torque with that of the V8 engine.