01-17-2022, 06:53 PM | #1 |
Drives: 2021 2SS 1LE Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 805
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what chassis feedback is there just before the rear tires break loose?
Here's a question for all you track rats who drive an SS 1LE on OEM SC3 tires:
I've been tracking for 1 year so far and have now worked up my pace to the point where I am sometimes very close to the limit of tire adhesion (a few instances of beyond!). I therefore am trying to ensure I am as prepared as possible for oversteer (specifically oversteer) so that I can recognize when the rear tires are at their limit and/or the earliest phases of oversteer so that I can quickly correct with minimal drama. I can easily sense when the front tires are at their limit, as the car begins taking a wider path than I'm inputting with the steering and the steering gets lighter. For the rear, it's a lot harder for me to tell when it's at the tipping point. What feedback from the car are you guys sensing to help you identify when the rear traction has been maximized and is starting to go too far beyond toward excessive slip angle? |
01-17-2022, 08:26 PM | #2 |
Drives: Chevrolet SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 1,446
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There's not a ton of warning, honestly. The 1LE's active diff can sometimes ramp up the clutch pressure and lock the axles up a little too abruptly, which can lead to oversteer without much warning. However, that's a far bigger problem exiting very slow corners, and therefore in autocross runs rather than most road courses. Typically, on a road course the car has just a touch of understeer and is very stable. I think you'd have to be pretty awful with the inputs to get oversteer on corner entry, and if you get any power oversteer on exit you can quickly stop it by easing off the gas partially (not by abruptly letting off the throttle all the way).
ETA: I would highly recommend doing some autocross events, where you can safely explore and exceed the limits of either end and get a better feel for them.
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Matt Miller
2020 SS 1LE |
01-17-2022, 08:50 PM | #3 |
Drives: 2018 Camaro 1SS 1LE Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Michigan
Posts: 434
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not a lot, which is why tuning you "butt gyro" to additional yaw is important. The 1LE is very predictable, and I do agree with Msquared that abrupt input, or simply pitching the car into the corner at too high speed is most likely to give you entry oversteer..... but it is SO controllable and SO addicting.
First time I went into race mode on a track I instantly forgot about the lap time, and simply enjoyed the slides the car allowed me to do. Both on the entry and exit side. Very BMW like. But bottom line is there isn't a big tell most of the time. Perhaps a change in the pitch of the tire squeal, it gets higher right before the end lets go. More aggressive tires give even less warning from experience. So best bet is to get used to certain yaw @ certain corners (or at certain speed & steering wheel angle) and be ready to counter steer when it starts feeling like more. Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 01-17-2022 at 09:03 PM. |
01-17-2022, 09:14 PM | #4 |
Drives: 2023 CT5 Blackwing Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Orlando
Posts: 1,618
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Echo what others have said...I describe my 1LE as a 'big, fat Miata'.
It's so forgiving and so freakin' fun to slide out of a corner. I have found a more progressive warning on the SC3's than some of the other tires I have run. RE71's let go abruptly, 660s more gradually. SC3R's never let go... Honestly, I use speed as the most reliable indicator. I know that's only helpful on a track you know, but at Sebring and Daytona, I can usually tell when it's going to step out based on entry speed.
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2017 HBM SS 1LE
Sold 2023 Wave Metallic CT5-V Blackwing M6 |
01-18-2022, 03:46 PM | #5 |
just put it in track mode, ptm race.....hit the apex and floor it. The car will step out a bit and make all the power corrections. you just make a slight steering input.
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2022 Camaro Zl1 1LE, e85, Roto Fab and tune
2020 Colorado ZR2 Dusk edition 2021 Mustang Mach e |
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01-18-2022, 09:37 PM | #6 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: NorCal
Posts: 658
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My belief is track race gives one a lot of angle to the point the driver has to make most corrections. Perhaps your s strategy of flooring it would be more applicable in sport or sport2? If I’m wrong, and you’re speaking from experience, let me know. Or maybe I’m simply misunderstanding your point. Anyway, I find the 1le predictable in that I generally know when oversteer is likely… always caused by the driver and either power oversteer or lift off oversteer. Either way, I usually can anticipate it because I’m the one that caused it! I too would recommend an event to let you better explore the limits. I’ve done one drift event just for that reason and it was a blast. |
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01-18-2022, 09:48 PM | #7 | |
Drives: 2020 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe 2SS 1LE Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Nevada
Posts: 296
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I’ve only done 1 track day so I’m definitely not an expert on PTM modes. |
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01-19-2022, 06:59 AM | #8 | |||
Drives: 2018 Camaro 1SS 1LE Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Michigan
Posts: 434
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Yes, you can still spin, but that's more likely because of how you entered the corner (how much rotation you have at corner entry or apex), than due to being on full throttle. PTM is amazing, it's like cheating. If the vehicle is fairly stable with little steering input when you floor it, there isn't that much excess yaw to manage. There is a hairpin turn at one of my local home tracks, and I realized that the fastest way though it is to enter it a bit hot, tap the brakes just before the apex to induce rotation, get the car to point out, and floor it even if I'm still a bit sideways. Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 01-19-2022 at 07:24 AM. |
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01-19-2022, 09:26 AM | #9 | |
Drives: 19 ZLE A10,17 SS 1LE, 16 C7R,CT5V Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Berryville, VA
Posts: 175
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Quote:
To the OP: Your in Cary, NC - get out to NCCAR and work on full nannies off and saving the car with couter steer. Build up to counter steer and keeping the throttle on. - Come up to Summit Point for a FATT and spend time in the Crown Vics where you can practice big time under/over steer situations. Thes cars have fantastic PTM. Yes it will make you "look" like a better driver. One day you have to turn it off to get faster. SMOOTH even with PTM Modes will pay off. |
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01-20-2022, 05:33 AM | #10 | |
Barefoot Dave
Drives: 2015 ZL1, 2014 Z/28 Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Fairfax VA
Posts: 150
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I couldn't agree more with what BC (Juice 3) has to say here and we are fellow instructors at some tracks in the NE. There is a great document out there that explains PTM in explicit detail that I give to all of my Camaro students- read it and understand it and with that knowledge and some decent instruction you will learn that the R&D that Al O and team put into these cars is truly amazing. Good luck and be safe. Come on up to Summit Point for a FATT, SCCA or CHIN event and there is a good chance one of us could help you out.
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Dave M
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01-20-2022, 01:34 PM | #11 | |
Drives: 2013 Camaro 1LE Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Verona, WI
Posts: 1,924
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The tighter you are connected to your vehicle the easier it will be for you to sense when the car is starting to rotate. Then you just have to experience that sensation more to learn when the rotation is beneficial and when the rotation is starting to happen too quickly or too much. Without having your butt glued to your drivers seat so you can feel the change in lateral G's and the car's rotation, you won't be able to sense when the oversteer is happening as easily. That would be my suggestion for being able to feel the feedback the car is giving you.
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01-20-2022, 01:46 PM | #12 | |
Drives: 2016 1ss camaro Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 909
Posts: 9,817
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yup seat and harness and hans device was some of the best $$ i spent so far on my car next to my mcs coilovers
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16 1SS NIGHTFALL GRAY METALLIC WITH NPP #BECAUSERACECAR #SAVETHEMANUALS
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01-20-2022, 04:57 PM | #13 | |
Drives: 2017 Blue Camaro 1SS 1LE with PDR Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 962
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=QApcdgZ7zps Agreed on power exit oversteer, or you can keep your foot in it and countersteer more but lifting slightly (maybe by 20%) plus some countersteer is generally less risky. Agreed on autocross. Keeping it in 1st gear will give you more practice with oversteer especially with SC3 tires that are cool/cold. IMO the harness is not necessary although it may help somewhat. I'm happy using my knees for bracing with foam padding added to those spots. The stock Recaro seats hold me in place well. I feel when the car is starting to oversteer. SC3 tire squeal is normal (more on some tracks/surfaces than others) when driving the car hard on track without oversteering so it isn't a good indicator in my experience. |
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01-20-2022, 04:58 PM | #14 |
Drives: 19 ZLE A10,17 SS 1LE, 16 C7R,CT5V Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Berryville, VA
Posts: 175
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Pdr of that ? Looks like an input issue to me.
Get harnesses Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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