Electric Vehicles

[Capricio]

I'm starting to get the sense that "nobody did the math first" on the minerals supply chain and sustainment for all the OEMs combined EV production goals. Namely,copper, graphite, cobalt, and lithium. Seems like that could have been easily anticipated while our altruistic leaders were forcing regulations for unrealistic zero-carbon goals (for our own good) while allegedly trying to save consumers money with affordable EVs.


Am I missing something?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

I'm starting to get the sense that "nobody did the math first" on the minerals supply chain and sustainment for all the OEMs combined EV production goals. Namely,copper, graphite, cobalt, and lithium. Seems like that could have been easily anticipated while our altruistic leaders were forcing regulations for unrealistic zero-carbon goals (for our own good) while allegedly trying to save consumers money with affordable EVs.


Am I missing something?

You are not missing anything. If the current state of battery tech and the materials involved were frozen where they are now there would be shortage somewhere. But there’s a lot of smart people working on continual development and improving efficiency of the mineral content. It’s sorta like in the 70s when catalytic converters were introduced. The amount of precious metals in them was unsustainable. Over time automakers shared research on ways to decrease the amount of precious metals. Over time 95% of precious metal content was engineered out of the converters to get them to the level of efficiency they are at today. Similar efforts will be needed for battery content and rare earth metals. That plus healthy remanufacturing and recycling industries, both of which are in progress right now.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

He talked about the $80k Lightning. He didn’t bother to mention that it had to be heavily optioned to get to that price, so the casual listener would think “Ford thinks the can get $80k for Lightning”. The actual base price for Lightning is significantly less. So how did this one get to $80k? Is Ford only building $80k trim levels ala GM with Hummer? Or did a customer order it and hasn’t picked it up yet? Or did the dealer spec it that way thinking “just maybe…”? We don’t know. Neither does video guy.

We run statistics on sales and inventory the 1st of every month, so this chart that I made is fresh data. When I look at Mach E, their sales for 2023 are right on par with sales for 2022, so no drop off in sales as the video guy suggests. So why the higher than average days inventory? I’d say it is more of a screw up on Ford manufacturing planning than it is any drop in interest from buyers. They are still selling at the same rates this year as last. And in terms number of sales, they are right on par with other EV utilities. Selling better than everything except Ioniq 5 in the month of October. Better than Ioniq 5 and all the others for the year.

For Lightning, it’s hard to say on sales and inventory because Ford does not break out Lightning separate from other F150. But their F150 days in inventory is not out of line with other brands. As for the pricing of Lightning? Lightning starts at $49,995 for Pro and can be optioned up to $95,335 for Platinum.

F150 starts at $33,835 and can be optioned up to $86,795 for a Limited with all the options. Probably more for a Raptor, but I didn’t go there.

I recall reading EV interest was higher for people with long commutes - high routine mileage. That's probably a segment of people crunching the $ per mile number, and weighing the value of the left side of your range bar graph.

I also recall Ford saying they built too many lower range Mach-Es. If range anxiety hurts them, that explains no smaller pack Equinox EV from gm. And it means Mach-E discounts to sway people that would just get a Bolt type of car.

My logic from there is it's stupid to sell the Lightning as a high trim truck when it's the lower range choice.

It's overlap to have the Sierra EV when the Hummer is there. And it's dumb to sell the Silverado EV in a WT trim because it's a married upper-middle class dad's truck...

[genxer]

Originally Posted by genxer

And it's dumb to sell the Silverado EV in a WT trim because it's a married upper-middle class dad's truck...

...and when the wife divorce$ to move out of State, he trades it in on a gas crewcab and snowmobiling trips for having the kids on weekends.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You are not missing anything. If the current state of battery tech and the materials involved were frozen where they are now there would be shortage somewhere. But there’s a lot of smart people working on continual development and improving efficiency of the mineral content. It’s sorta like in the 70s when catalytic converters were introduced. The amount of precious metals in them was unsustainable. Over time automakers shared research on ways to decrease the amount of precious metals. Over time 95% of precious metal content was engineered out of the converters to get them to the level of efficiency they are at today. Similar efforts will be needed for battery content and rare earth metals. That plus healthy remanufacturing and recycling industries, both of which are in progress right now.

Recycling will have a negligible impact for at least a decade if not longer regardless of technological advances.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by jamala00

The problem is, your post is the exact reason I said what I said... I said... and I quote...

"I don't understand why Pro EV guys sit on a ICE muscle car forum and try to convince non EV buyers why their thoughts/beliefs are misplaced/misguided. Why not just go on EV forums and talk with like minded people about your EV?"

I told you, Im on this forum as I own a Camaro.
Im on this thread as I thought some actual, real life experience of EV ownership might counterbalance the inaccuracies being posted, I probably should have realised I was wasting my time when people started arguing with actual sales figures

What I didnt expect is people actually believe they "dont need to try an EV to know they suck", dont consider cheaper, cleaner fuel as a good thing or just cant accept the rest of the world is moving forward with this even if you, on a personal or national level, arent.

Maybe youre right and the USA just isnt ever going to get the EV thing. Maybe the rest of the world will realise our mistake and swap cars for pickup trucks, who knows?

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by docwra

I told you, Im on this forum as I own a Camaro.
Im on this thread as I thought some actual, real life experience of EV ownership might counterbalance the inaccuracies being posted, I probably should have realised I was wasting my time when people started arguing with actual sales figures

What I didnt expect is people actually believe they "dont need to try an EV to know they suck", dont consider cheaper, cleaner fuel as a good thing or just cant accept the rest of the world is moving forward with this even if you, on a personal or national level, arent.

Maybe youre right and the USA just isnt ever going to get the EV thing. Maybe the rest of the world will realise our mistake and swap cars for pickup trucks, who knows?

There is no real reason for me to reponed to your ignorance when @olrocker and @Wyzz already did it for me. I don't really have anything to add. (Thanks Guys!)

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by docwra

I told you, Im on this forum as I own a Camaro.
Im on this thread as I thought some actual, real life experience of EV ownership might counterbalance the inaccuracies being posted, I probably should have realised I was wasting my time when people started arguing with actual sales figures

What I didnt expect is people actually believe they "dont need to try an EV to know they suck", dont consider cheaper, cleaner fuel as a good thing or just cant accept the rest of the world is moving forward with this even if you, on a personal or national level, arent.

Maybe youre right and the USA just isnt ever going to get the EV thing. Maybe the rest of the world will realise our mistake and swap cars for pickup trucks, who knows?

There is no real reason for me to reponed to your ignorance when @olrocker and @Wyzz already did it for me. I don't really have anything to add. (Thanks Guys!)

I will say... I find it kind of funny that you say you are here to give real world examples from someone that owns an EV, but yet all I see you doing is coming back to this thread to see if I responded to your condescending post to see what kind of reaction you got from me. LOL It's the only thing you responded too after all the posts made. There were even others that responded to your post but yet you only responded to me. It pretty much sums up why you are really here. Thanks for letting me live rent free in your head.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Recycling will have a negligible impact for at least a decade if not longer regardless of technological advances.

For the most part this is true, but it does need to start now to be impactful when it is needed. The low volume of vehicles sold today and the even lower volume of vehicles / batteries being scrapped within the next 10 years means volume of material from that channel for recycling will be low. In the meantime recyclers can be and are interacting with battery manufacturers to obtain process waste to “prime the pump” for recycling.

The reason I say “for the most part” is because recycling and remanufacturing processes have already been in place for years to support post warranty needs for hybrid vehicles, so the processes have already been proven. But the volume of recyclable and remanufacturable material won’t reach full operating scale until high volume EVs built in the 2025 - 30 timeframe start to have post warranty needs.

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by Gen6cyl

We can have both EV and IC in America but we will have to defeat socialism here.

Bingo... The continued echo statement in this thread... "If we have a choice..."

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Touch a nerve did I?

Yep, someone got their feelings hurt... What is that old saying.. Sometimes the truth hurts...

[Wyzz Kydd]

LOL. Someone got their little feelings hurt and complained? Typical.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

LOL. Someone got their little feelings hurt and complained? Typical.

Not one single person complained...

If folks in this thread can't at least post respectfully toward others who may have different views, you will be gone.

Carry on...

[1JEWLDSSRS]

Originally Posted by mlee

Not one single person complained...

If folks in this thread can't at least post respectfully toward others who may have different views, you will be gone.

Carry on...

Awesome mlee!! Nicely said. Cheers sir! Thanks..