MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[Hylton]

I'm not convinced. Name me one vehicle GMC sells that does not have a Chevrolet or Cadillac counterpart?

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I'm not convinced. Name me one vehicle GMC sells that does not have a Chevrolet or Cadillac counterpart?

I think you completely missed the point of my last post.

If GMC dies, I am more than willing to go to Chevy for my truck needs. However, there are plenty of people who drive GMC and wouldn't be caught dead in a Chevy and vice versa. A few months ago, a rumor came around on GMInsideNews that GMC was on a list of brands that could be dropped, and almost immediately there was an uproar from GMC drivers. Believe it or not, there are people out there who are detail-oriented enough to notice every difference between a Sierra and Silverado. And there are even more people out there who know that they're the same truck, but still think that the Sierra looks better.

There's also brand reputation to take into account. For many, Chevy's always been the normal, every-day, work truck, entry level car or truck or whatever. Cadillac offers all-out luxury, but at an extreme price.

I think my own hometown is a perfect example of this. I seriously see more Yukons/Yukon XLs on the road here than Tahoes or Suburbans. The majority of people here could be classified as upper middle class, probably in the $70-90k income bracket. For those who need an SUV, Cadillac is too expensive, leaving Chevy and GMC. For whatever reason, people here choose GMC.

Personally, I've attributed it to the fact that GMCs tend to look more upscale than Chevys despite being the same truck. For example, my '03 Envoy has chrome (fake) accents around the A/C ducts and gauges. The Trailblazer's A/C ducts bulge out from the paneling, which IMO, doesn't look as nice. The Trailblazer has a plastic casing which surrounds the switchgear which just looks like the gray, hard plastic which covers the entire dash, whereas my Envoy has a patterned, glossy plastic casing. The front grille of my Envoy is surrounded in chrome (fake...), whereas the Trailblazer's grille is surrounded by body color paint.

So yes, both brands offer the same trucks. But when it comes down to a matter of personal opinion, there actually are people who prefer one brand to another. Depending on how much they prefer the brand, they may switch over, or they might not.

[BeermanSS]

Well they had the top selling Envoy XUV, and of course the light and medium duty commercial trucks.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

However, there are plenty of people who drive GMC and wouldn't be caught dead in a Chevy and vice versa.

Well they are pretty stupid IMO. I could turn my Yukon into a Tahoe in about 1 hour. There is not enough difference in finish, quality, drivetrain, suspension, body panels, dash or interior components to warrant going to a different brand other than Chevy or Cadillac. They are made in the same factory for crying out loud.

It's 4th and long for GM right now. Time to punt.....

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by BeermanSS

Well they had the top selling Envoy XUV, and of course the light and medium duty commercial trucks.

Awww...I miss the XUV. We bought our Envoy right around when it started hitting dealer lots, and I got our salesman to demonstrate the roof for us. I wanted one really badly. I seriously almost cried when they canceled it. :(

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Well they are pretty stupid IMO. I could turn my Yukon into a Tahoe in about 1 hour. There is not enough difference in finish, quality, drivetrain, suspension, body panels, dash or interior components to warrant going to a different brand other than Chevy or Cadillac. They are made in the same factory for crying out loud.

It's 4th and long for GM right now. Time to punt.....

Long story short, GM could quite possibly end up losing more money from killing GMC than by just letting it continue on. There are very few standalone GMC dealers in the nation, but P-B-G dealerships aren't going to be very happy losing a third of their inventory along with losing sales.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I could turn my Yukon into a Tahoe in about 1 hour. There is not enough difference in finish, quality, drivetrain, suspension, body panels, dash or interior components to warrant going to a different brand other than Chevy or Cadillac.

This is my point exactly. There are plenty of options (most for the better) for people, not just with GMC but with Buick, Pontiac, and Saab, within the realm of Chevy and Cadillac. And if there aren't, GM could easily modify option packages for Chevy trucks to make them more "GMC".... have a "luxury package" to add the chrome HVAC vents for Pete's sake if people are going to be that bitchy.

Scott's response to my suggestions is about what I expected to hear from him. Again, I'm not trying to get into a fight with you Scott, but I think if you sat back and looked at all the overlap between divisions that still exists (despite what Bob Lutz said a few years ago that "badge engineering" the GM way was gone for good), it's hard not to think about seriously strealining all your product.

Let's all take our beloved Camaro for example. I see on many forums people still angry that there isn't going to be a Pontiac Firebird/TA to coincide on the same platform. I, on the other hand, am extremely glad and absolutely elated there isn't. Badge engineering is bad. Overlap between the divisions is bad. And don't tell me about Toyota getting away with it because the way they can take one platform and make 10 different vehicles with it is a key - while the underpinnings may be based on the same platform, there is enough difference in style, design, engineering, handling, tuning, features, and overall shape that to 99% of even car enthusiasts no one really knows.

Let's be honest: A Silverado and a Sierra aren't fooling anyone. Neither is a G6 and an Aura. Or a Cobalt and a G5. See a trend here? A couple of hours with a screwdriver and I could interchange them all to confuse everyone

(reminds me of the 1980's Regal, Cutlass Supreme, and Grand Prix. You could mishmash those cars like crazy)

Seriously, you have to at least acknowledge the overlap was dragging the company down years ago, long before we had such a crisis.

I've been saying in my opinion that Chevy and Cadillac are all GM's needed since the late 1990's.

[Speedfreak]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Did ANYONE see this disaster coming down the pike? (I mean the mortage meltdown followed by $4.00 gas followed by the Banking Industry meltdown - all in what? 9 months?????

>GM is doing everything in its power to avoid Chapter 11. EVEN if it Does go chapter 11, it does not mean the company goes away -- but it DOES mean that YOU, the U.S. taxpayer are going to be hit with a huge amount of 'legacy costs' ........

There is too much misinformation out there right now............and DON"T get me started on 'Bailout' -- because (everyone repeat in unison

It is NOT a BAILOUT we're asking for.

The ones who set it up in the first place new exactly what was coming. They made their money and are now paying 10 -12k a month in personal security.

GM ect cannot be let into bankruptcy for several reasons.

1. Congress (mostly democrats) are hugely responsible for the current situation of the American auto industry. The have forced hundreds of billions of unfunded bullshit mandates on the industry, they have created a unfair playing field for the companies to compete with, they had a huge hand in the credit blow up and have allowed the continuation of labor unions.

2. If GM or any of the others went bankrupt it would cost us 10x as much as any assistance now.

3. I own $1,600 in GM stock

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by fastball

This is my point exactly. There are plenty of options (most for the better) for people, not just with GMC but with Buick, Pontiac, and Saab, within the realm of Chevy and Cadillac. And if there aren't, GM could easily modify option packages for Chevy trucks to make them more "GMC".... have a "luxury package" to add the chrome HVAC vents for Pete's sake if people are going to be that bitchy.

Scott's response to my suggestions is about what I expected to hear from him. Again, I'm not trying to get into a fight with you Scott, but I think if you sat back and looked at all the overlap between divisions that still exists (despite what Bob Lutz said a few years ago that "badge engineering" the GM way was gone for good), it's hard not to think about seriously strealining all your product.

Let's all take our beloved Camaro for example. I see on many forums people still angry that there isn't going to be a Pontiac Firebird/TA to coincide on the same platform. I, on the other hand, am extremely glad and absolutely elated there isn't. Badge engineering is bad. Overlap between the divisions is bad. And don't tell me about Toyota getting away with it because the way they can take one platform and make 10 different vehicles with it is a key - while the underpinnings may be based on the same platform, there is enough difference in style, design, engineering, handling, tuning, features, and overall shape that to 99% of even car enthusiasts no one really knows.

Let's be honest: A Silverado and a Sierra aren't fooling anyone. Neither is a G6 and an Aura. Or a Cobalt and a G5. See a trend here? A couple of hours with a screwdriver and I could interchange them all to confuse everyone

(reminds me of the 1980's Regal, Cutlass Supreme, and Grand Prix. You could mishmash those cars like crazy)

Seriously, you have to at least acknowledge the overlap was dragging the company down years ago, long before we had such a crisis.

I've been saying in my opinion that Chevy and Cadillac are all GM's needed since the late 1990's.

A camry and a lexus es300 are noticeably different cars? I can hardly tell the difference. I am sure there are differences but your argument is sort of one sided. I would have to agree with Scott that trimming brands will cost them buyers, and considering the cost involved and the timetable to saving money, I don't think it is a worthwhile change to make. Did'nt adding Scion bring a lot of new buyers to Toyota? Do the reverse and see how many buyers GM loses.

The moral of the story is that managing declines in business can make the most brilliant leadership look dumb and you have to consider how difficult it really is for GM to reduce production due to legacy costs, buyouts instead of layoffs, etc. How many businesses in this world would survive if everytime they had to trim production they had to pay people 2+ years salary to go away?

[shadowed_Stranger]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Don't like GM? Then at least consider a Ford or A Chrysler -- you're helping everyone out.

Wow... You just climbed way up on my respect-o-meter. I hope there are alot of people at GM like you. It shows strength of character, which (in my mind anyway) should not be punished by bying elsewhere.

It reminds me of how ford made their world headquarters say happy 100 GM on the 100th bday of gm... Sometimes it takes really bad times like this to remind everyone how much they take for granted. This WILL be hard all around, and I think much like forging steel, we will all be stronger once this wears off.

I wish my best luck to not only everyone at GM, but also to the other big two, and to the rest of the citizens of this great country known as the United States of America.
-Shadowed_Stranger

[16yearoldcamarodriver]

So does this mean that only people who order now get their Camaro? I want to see the car first and THEN order because I want to check out the inside. I can't do that at an auto show because we can't sit in the inside....I will put my order in around Feb.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by shadowed_Stranger

Wow... You just climbed way up on my respect-o-meter. I hope there are alot of people at GM like you. It shows strength of character, which (in my mind anyway) should not be punished by bying elsewhere.

It reminds me of how ford made their world headquarters say happy 100 GM on the 100th bday of gm... Sometimes it takes really bad times like this to remind everyone how much they take for granted. This WILL be hard all around, and I think much like forging steel, we will all be stronger once this wears off.

I wish my best luck to not only everyone at GM, but also to the other big two, and to the rest of the citizens of this great country known as the United States of America.
-Shadowed_Stranger

Like I said, we're all in this together, GM, Ford, and Chrysler. I found even more respect for Ford on GM's 100th birthday when they did that.

So even though we rip on Mustangs from time to time, we need to remember that they're American cars too, and Ford's in trouble just as we are. Everyone needs to stick together in bad times like these.

[blueforza]

unfortunatly GM needed to put this car out alot sooner they lost alot of money in sales to Ford and Dodge, But I guess the car wasn't perfect yet. Common sense says that the production of the camaro will be affected as they shut down facilities and lay workers off. Time will Tell

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by Hylton

If you want to keep the GMC line, give it all to Pontiac and they can just call all their trucks GMC's. The entire management at GMC is redundant I'm sorry to say.

well........that's pretty much what we did some time ago -- it's B/P/G Division for all intents and purposes........and the dealer body is just about merged (which was NOT easy to do!)

Now -- some will say 'well......just make ALL GM Trucks GMCs!' -- and that's great -- in theory -- however, it runs into the francise laws of about 40 states -- meaning that we'd have to terminate some francises --

.........can you say "Lawsuit?"