Well, It looks like the government won't help GM

[Stevo]

I am worried too Nick. Even if GM did survive short term how about in 5 years? now Ford is different... Obama drives a Ford Escape hybrid...

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Stevo

I am worried too Nick. Even if GM did survive short term how about in 5 years? now Ford is different... Obama drives a Ford Escape hybrid...

GM expects profitability to return in 2010. Whether or not that's true is debatable, but GM is very confident in that.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by RCowan

If GM goes down, someone else will buy them, its not like all those jobs will disappear. All those resources will be too big a bargain for a foreign automaker to avoid buying up. Survival of the fittest. Camaro could live on under another flag. What I DON'T want is the govt owning a piece of GM and telling them what to build, having an up/down say on new models, etc., sitting on all their board mtgs. Sounds like Russia--"Excellent presentation on the new 6th gen Camaro, Bob, now we just need to beg for the approval of the Government Automotive Minister...." Do you think Nancy Pelosi wants you driving a V8? These are the people who brought you CAFE. They would LOVE to get their dirty hands deeper into the auto industry to make it what THEY want. Consider the consequences of this either way.

I agree with this assessment. Th last thing we want is the government in control of GM or any other car company.

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by Stevo

I am worried too Nick. Even if GM did survive short term how about in 5 years? now Ford is different... Obama drives a Ford Escape hybrid...

As a publicity stunt. If he didn't have to save face with it, he'd be driving a CTS or Escalade like the rest of us would. IF he wanted to drive a hybrid SUV, he should be driving a Hybrid Escalade instead of getting kickbacks from Ford. Should be getting kickbacks from GM.. Heck, throw in a diesel electric system under the hood and make that the Presidential 'Limo'.

Black Suburban, meet your big brother: The Presidential Black Escalade..

[bobscogin]

Originally Posted by Zabo

*I am in no way saying Lutz or other executives in GM are bad,

If not on Lutz, then allow me to comment on one of those "other" executives. GM stock has fallen in value by 95% under Rick Wagoner's near decade of "leadership". It would be quite a stretch to call that anything other than bad. I find it hard to believe that he could , or should, remain as CEO under any type of government assistance or bankruptcy.

Bob

[Stevo]

Actually Obama used to Drve the gangsta mobile... a Chrysler 300...before he got plotically correct!

[detroitboy]

Its not that the feds are saying "no" to helping them....they are saying "cut out your executive bonus programs and straighten out your inhouse financial waste before you come to us for help".

From the comments in this thread it would seem that many people feel the same way. You ought to read some of the comments on other sites from people here in the Detroit area who either work at GM or have business relationships with them. There is much being said about their internal waste, duplication of product, and executive compensation. Many people think the UAW ought to take a hit for the team too (after the execs).

Some areas of the company are probably already stretched too thin, but hopefully management can identify those areas where additional costs can be cut to achieve whatever it takes to get the feds to throw in financial aid.

Its also very interesting to hear how many allegations are being made of GM ignoring the needs here in the US while they are spending so much money in Europe. Something about the equivilent of the GM Tech Center being built in Russia????? Take the ball and run guys...I'm just passing on the information we get here from the locals.

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by detroitboy

Its also very interesting to hear how many allegations are being made of GM ignoring the needs here in the US while they are spending so much money in Europe. Something about the equivilent of the GM Tech Center being built in Russia?

Now I know that they are making money in Europe, but if they are doing this at the expense of the NA market's death: I would refuse to purchase GM product.

No ifs, ands or buts. I would refuse to purchase the new Camaro. I would refuse to purchase anything GM. If this is the case, then no wonder NA operations are in a flatspin..

It's almost as if all this outsourcing and companies going overseas are akin to rats escaping what they think is a sinking ship..

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by USAFJeeper

Whats the difference? Both are privately owned companies that affect people beyond their own business. Each has suppliers, advertising costs and so on. Why not bail out Bob the Turf Man too? There are a lot more Bobs out there.

They're not privately owned actually...see: stockholders. CHRYSLER is privately owned...GM is the direct opposite. And Bob the Turf man, unfortunately...doesn't have the ability to sink the country to a heartbeat away from a full-blown depression. Would that be nice.

Originally Posted by RCowan

Of course that is what GM wants, but what's being proposed is something that will screw them & enthusiasts:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122660438304425269.html
"Democrats have said the legislation would include stiff conditions such as limits on executive compensation and standards for the development of fuel-efficient vehicles."

This is nothing new. The last 25billion that was approved in the CAFE bill? It was tailored for use in re-tooling plants and development for fuel-efficient vehicles. Their intent is to help make 'green' cars that people want now easier to make so they can make a profit off of them as opposed to SUVs.

Originally Posted by Zabo

$40K for a car that honestly does little to no better than the failure that the Prius has become won't help them as much as the Camaro could.

As great as the Camaro is...that statement couldn't be further from the truth. 100mpg rating sound nice to you? What about an outstanding-quality (inside and out) $35-40k, 100 to infinity mpg car with a $7500 government incentive tacked onto it?

The Volt will be expensive, no doubt...but it is everything the Prius CAN'T do. Big PR win, in addition to a CAFE annihilating car. The Camaro is impressive, and has a tremendous 'wow' factor in any form, but it doesn't have the same ability to improve GM's standing like the Volt does.

Originally Posted by Zabo

IMO, [GM] SHOULD go bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Zabo

IMO, [the USA] SHOULD go bankrupt.

That connection is as real as the fingers you typed the original with. DON'T discount the effect GM has on this country for good or bad.

Originally Posted by Zabo

2) Give them an excuse to force the executives to actually take a step back and see what limbs they need to hack off to save the rest of the ill body. If they refuse, they forfeit their jobs. IF they are doing this now, then disregard 2. Keep up the good work then.
Consider it disregarded, and praise noted...They've sold off nearly everything they dare...and they've layed off/retired more people than one might want to see happen...they are hacking away....

3) Chpt. 11 isn't necessarily a bad thing as many people think. What the nation really needs is an education lesson on what Chapter 11 bankruptcies do to companies. Look at United and how it sprang back from the crapper after '02.

"As of July 31, 2006, United is the world's second largest airline by revenue-passenger-miles (behind American Airlines), third-largest by total operating revenues (behind Air France-KLM and American Airlines), and fourth-largest by total passengers transported (behind American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Southwest Airlines). United has 56,000 employees and operates 433 aircraft.

On February 1, 2006, United emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection under which it had operated since December 9, 2002, the largest and longest airline bankruptcy case in the history of the industry."

Chapter 11 works people, Chapter 11 works.
These are two ENTIRELY different industries. The Airlines ferry people around for a few hundred bucks a pop: very LITTLE long-term investment. (you don't buy 5 years worth of plane tickets, for instance)...they're big ferries that aren't likely to drop out of the sky upon announcement of bankruptcy.

Whereas GM/Ford/Chrysler SELLS the ferries for $20,000-$30,000!!! A HUGE long-term investment. And these ferries are little guys that are EXPECTED to break down as it is the nature of the beast. And people will want to cover these breakdowns under a warranty. But if the company supplying the warranty goes bankrupt...and that gets plastered all over the news...how many people will actually buy from them as opposed to Company 'T' over there, who's comparatively doing fine? Now...how the hell are the big three supposed to "turn around" if even less people than now are buying their stuff? They can't!!! Instant death, guaranteed.

Chapter 11 works...yes, or else it wouldn't be there...but Chapter 11 DOESN'T work for GM...and this airline comparison (thrown around a lot lately, is a very poor example)

4) Axe half of the stateside brands that are just redundant (Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, US Buick, GMC as a noncommercial entity). Chevrolet (No SUVs or Silverados), Cadilliac(No SUVs), and GMC(Exclusively Commercial Vehicles - SUVs go here!) would be their bread and butter units in the United States. The plants left over could be used as future production facilities for more advanced 'green' vehicles, retaining the jobs there. Others could be retooled into research plants outside of Detroit as 'Field Research/Marketing Centers' Where people could have a more active role in designing cars in the corporeal that they'd like to see in the future rather than participating online.
Nice idea...but...Pontiac and the others you mentioned probably provides GM with roughly 20% of their income...the results of stripping that away would be interesting. I'd say "catastrophic", but that would be considered over-reacting. When GM got rid of oldsmobile...guess how many buyers gravitated to other GM brands? Almost none...it was a big loss. Lots of money to get rid of the brands, and lots of customers lost.

Over all, I am thinking that like the Aviation Industry is trying to do; the Auto Industry needs to have a civilian oversight board to help them see what the public wants which would MAKE them money rather than them always playing catch-up.
I think their business already revolves around what customers want. Shift to SUVs, build SUVs....shift to cars, build cars

Think about it, if GM actually was ahead of the game more than it could be already, then they'd make a killing being the prophets of the auto industry rather than the likes of other overseas companies.
They already are ahead of the game by many standards. They have the most vehicles with 30mpg +, the most stylish vehicles (by many accounts), and have had nearly every one of their recent entries into the market win some sort of award...how much more ahead (short of flying cars) can they be?

*I am in no way saying Lutz or other executives in GM are bad, just that they may have their priorities crossed saving the company as as a whole this moment. Also, if we had more people like FBod...
See below. (and +1 about Fbod)

--Tidbid: Rick Wagoner was responsible for the ZR1...it was his idea to build a $100,000 Corvette....

Also, cut the Unions loose. Seriously.. this is nation wide too. All Unions in all ends of the American Workforce (Food/Commerical, UAW, Pilots Unions, Mechanics Unions) should be suspended because all it's doing IMO is more harm than good at this point rather than it has in the past. All they've become is a vessel of pride rather than the workers protection that they were designed for from the start.
They still operate under the principles of workers protectiong. What we're seeing some of them do is becoming overzealous, and demanding too much. But can the companies they deal with also be blamed for giving it to them? They're called "negotiations" for a reason, after all.

Secondly, the UAW is almost a non-issue in the problems the big three have right now. I fail to understand why it keeps getting brought up.

Originally Posted by bobscogin

If not on Lutz, then allow me to comment on one of those "other" executives. GM stock has fallen in value by 95% under Rick Wagoner's near decade of "leadership". It would be quite a stretch to call that anything other than bad. I find it hard to believe that he could , or should, remain as CEO under any type of government assistance or bankruptcy.

An interesting note...Wagoner was responsible for getting GM into China, and the other parts of the world...in short, it was Wagoner's idea that has kept GM relatively healthy 'till know...think of it as a captain steering a sinking ship in a torrential storm...there's really not much he can do other than attempt to beach it in time...

No...perhaps he isn't the 'best'...but it certainly wasn't his fault that GM is where it is. There are many factors. 90% of which I can't imagine, and 10% of which would take me a day and a half to write out.....

Originally Posted by detroitboy

Its not that the feds are saying "no" to helping them....they are saying "cut out your executive bonus programs and straighten out your inhouse financial waste before you come to us for help".
Lutz and Wagoner took substantial pay-cuts in 2006-2007. Now...still making nearly a million bucks could be considered distasteful in light of the current situation...but I ask you; how much is a few million between all the execs gonna do to hold back a BILLION dollar-a-month wound? In house waste is being addressed through consolidation of brands into a single managerial structure. For example; Ponitac, Buick, and GMC are all under one roof, both at dealers and in management.

Its also very interesting to hear how many allegations are being made of GM ignoring the needs here in the US while they are spending so much money in Europe. Something about the equivilent of the GM Tech Center being built in Russia????? Take the ball and run guys...I'm just passing on the information we get here from the locals.

Ignoring...might be the improper term to use. GM stands for "General Motors" everywhere you go...yes, but there are different branches of the company: GM Europe, and GM China, etc...they make regional decisions (like spending, etc) because they have their own income, and brands, etc. They're **almost** separate companies. If GM North America died it would have an astounding ripple effect throughout the country, and then the world. But theoretically...I believe (for example) GM Europe could survive without the head here in the US; that's how separate they are.

[fad1]

Originally Posted by HeatherR

Just recieved this in an email and thought I would pass it on. I have been lurking here and there to stay informed about the new camaro for awhile

Here are some facts from the WEB that don't get the press they deserve - next time you hear negative comments about domestic this may come in handy it also has the sites that the info came from as well.

I'M TIRED OF PEOPLE BAD MOUTHING AMERICAN CARS..GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT...
1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

a. Germany
b. Japan
c. Korea
d. United States

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

a. Chrysler
b. Ford
c. GM
d. Nissan
e. Toyota
f. Volkswagen

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.

a. Acura, BMW, Cadillac (all luxury makes)
b. Honda, Mercury, Nissan (all non-luxury makes)
c. Acura (lux), Chevrolet (non-lux), BMW (lux), Mazda (non-lux)

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

a. Accord (Honda)
b. Altima (Nissan)
c. Camry (Toyota)
d. Malibu (Chevrolet)

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

a. Avalon (Toyota)
b. Grand Prix (Pontiac)
c. Sable (Mercury)

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

a. Dakota (Dodge)
b. Ranger (Ford)
c. Tacoma (Toyota)

7. Which car is the most economical overall?

a. Aveo (Chevrolet)
b. Fit (Honda)
c. Prius (Toyota)

8. Which car did the LA Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

a. A6 (Audi)
b. CTS (Cadillac)
c. RL (Acura)

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

a. Chevrolet
b. Honda
c. Toyota

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

a. Aura (Saturn)
b. Camry (Toyota)
c. Fit (Honda)

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

a. Accord (Honda)
b. Altima coupe (Nissan)
c. Malibu (Chevrolet)

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

a. Chrysler
b. Ford
c. General Motors
d. Hyundai
e. Toyota
f. Volkswagen


ANSWERS:

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States.
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota.
www.businessweek.com/a...

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.

a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
www.jdpower.com/autos/...
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
www.jdpower.com/autos/...

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
www.jdpower.com/autos/...

7. Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America, taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
www.edmunds.com/help/a...

8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times.
www.latimes.com/classi...

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”

Did you catch that? A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
www.greencar.com/featu.../

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07
www.northamericancarof...

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
www.northamericancarof...

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.

13.If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit.

Detroit automakers: 79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.
Foreign automakers: 33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.
levelfieldinstitute.or.../

See this all what I have been talking about. Why dont the American car brand advertise on these aspects. What made Toyota and Honda so famous, it was their boasting of quality. Now, every time and average consumer hears quality, they think Toyota and Honda off the bat. The American car brands have to win the advertising battle with the Japanese auto brands and we have to instill into the American people and people of the world that American cars are quality cars. Once that happens, the whole company will turn around. I guarantee it.

[VICTORY RED 1SS]

Hi everyone..I've decided to give a low interest loan to GM myself, so don't worry its all ok now.

[nickspohn]

Okay, i do have reassurance GM will be helped out and back to normal.

But all i can say, when the time is right, load up on that GM stock!

[jimbo57]

if the feds get too involved, we'll be driving flower pots instead of sports cars.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by jimbo57

if the feds get too involved, we'll be driving flower pots instead of sports cars.

This is not a socialist acquisition. This is a loan request.

We live in the United States. We aren't communists or socialists. We support a democratic government in what is technically a mixed economy, featuring occasional government involvement in an otherwise capitalistic system. If the government actually does loan money to Detroit's automakers, it will be far less involvement than the rest of the world in the economy. It's amazing that people don't see that every developed country has injected money into the market, but Americans seem to believe that we'll turn communist if we offer loans, not bailouts. I don't think there's anything more capitalistic than offering money on a temporary basis with interest added. It is ridiculous and misinformed to call this anything other than capitalist and perhaps protectionist by nature.