Chinese components

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Chief Blackhawk

I know many chinese people, and they tell me the quality of products we get from china is actually higher than the quality of products chinese people get from china. Can you imagine that.

However I am opening a restaurant next month and due to my chinese hook up, I ordered all my equipment/tables/booths ect ect from China and it cost me about $20k less than it would of to order else where. I love America probably more so than the average joe, but I love money more. If I can save literally 20k from ordering from them, you bet your ass I will. I care about me and my family...btw the government wouldnt help me out to save my life with a VA business loan. But a local bank loved the plan and took it up.

Maybe if we didnt bend companies over on taxes and licenses and fees, I could of bought supplies that were made in America. I am using American companies to help run my business though.

Good luck getting that chinese made equipment worked on and fixed when it breaks.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by bigearl

Absolutely 100% it's America right now. But that leadership is eroding. Right now, America is doing much of the technological design process but then that manufacturing gets done overseas, like some of the smart phone chips and India for example. This is my worry because we are basically training other countries engineers to take over.

Poop... I thought you would say Japan or China. Depending on the study, U.S. is always in the top 10 (most of the time 1st) and China is near the bottom. The same thing goes for technology, the United States is always near the top while China is relatively near the bottom.

[Number 3]

Just some examples, and I am trying to remember and at the moment too lazy to back check the facts.

In a recent study of top universities, none were in China. Yes they graduate 4 x the number of engineers per year, but in schools that are not well thought of.

In a college class in China, there is a course in the design of Medium Duty Trucks. The course does not include the development of design solutions, but is rather the disection of the blue prints for the 1982 Isuzu Medium Duty Truck as reverse engineered.

GM had a the Spark ripped off by a Chinese company. GM was able to prove that the math for the car was sold to the Chinese by a tool maker in Taiwan. The proof? The Chinese version had 3 design changes that GM had not yet implemented in the parts yet but had changed in the math.

So today, I am not worried.

On a side note, my wife and I discuss this topic among others. I joking say that the U.S. will remain dominant in the world until the technology catches up to the space ship in Roswell, NM and then all bets are off.

But what do you think makes us so dominant? I think part of the reason is you can still make something of yourself working to implement an idea. An idea and hard work and you can make something of yourself, you can CREATE WEALTH. In most of the rest of the world, this is much more difficult, the government wants a bigger cut and success is not as beneficial. If you have an idea in China, you may be having a discussion with your local party leader on the who will benefit from it. Will it always be that way? I don't know.

Another sense check? People from around the world still want to come here. As much as we like to think our government is oppressive and gets in the way, people still want to call America home. Why? Not sure, I was born here. But I think it is because you can still work hard and make something of yourself here, unlike many other countries.

[HeHasReturned]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Just some examples, and I am trying to remember and at the moment too lazy to back check the facts.

In a recent study of top universities, none were in China. Yes they graduate 4 x the number of engineers per year, but in schools that are not well thought of.

I can't really comment on the university scale, but pre-college, or up through high school, foreign countries are WAY ahead of us. I can go on to recount multiple personal experiences, but I don't feel like it right now. To put my message briefly, I would be worried.:(

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by bigearl

Absolutely 100% it's America right now. But that leadership is eroding. Right now, America is doing much of the technological design process but then that manufacturing gets done overseas, like some of the smart phone chips and India for example. This is my worry because we are basically training other countries engineers to take over.

We have pushed the manufacturing jobs overseas with insane legislation. This pushes unemployment up and actually contributes to a separation of classes here. Then we get people trying to make millions or gain political power by exploiting class warfare.

Unless we pull manufacturing back into the USA, this will not end well.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by HeHasReturned

I can't really comment on the university scale, but pre-college, or up through high school, foreign countries are WAY ahead of us. I can go on to recount multiple personal experiences, but I don't feel like it right now. To put my message briefly, I would be worried.:(

Our higher education institutions, as well as higher education in the United States, is top-notch relative to the rest of the world.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

We have pushed the manufacturing jobs overseas with insane legislation. This pushes unemployment up and actually contributes to a separation of classes here. Then we get people trying to make millions or gain political power by exploiting class warfare.

Unless we pull manufacturing back into the USA, this will not end well.

I don't think its legislation that drove the cost of living up in every developed country. And with increased cost of living comes demand for higher pay. Even if you removed minimum wage, there is no way that you could get people to work for $1.00/hr (and therefore be competitive with overseas workers). They'd have a hard time feeding themselves, let alone their family or afford things like a place to live.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by motorhead

It all starts at the top. If our government had that kind of national pride it wouldn't have created the policies that put us in this mess.

And yet WE have the power to change "the top"...it's a mindset we've lost as a poeple...this notion that somehow we control who our leaders are. That they work FOR US, not the other way around. So if "the top" is so pride-less...what does that say about the people who put them there? There's a nasty meal to chew on...

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

It pains me to say that staying in business trumps national pride in most boardrooms.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

These are very complicated issues and unfortunately the problems are so intertwined with other issues that it's going to be very hard to try and unravel this mess.

This isn't a personal attack, so don't take it that way -- but this statement is a cop-out that many people use over and over.

Hard? Maybe...but what we lack is simple ACTION. Nothing can be done if we all sit around twiddling our thumbs because it's hard. Everyone likes to talk...and complain...and point out all the wrongs....but nobody's doing anything about it!!! Is that what this great nation has degraded to? Sitting on our porch swing and criticizing the guy we hired to cut the lawn for us?

Just do something....ANYTHING...and it'll get the ball rolling, even if it's in the wrong direction.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Plus... far too many people have made their own little fortunes exploiting the mess and they're not about to let anyone take away their golden goose by fixing the problems.

Naturally. And I think this is the tallest hurdle we'd have to overcome...convincing -- not defeating -- those truly "in charge" (follow the money) that the direction we want to take will benefit them.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Start a little conversation about Chinese made auto parts and throw in a whole lot of other goodies. Good thread with the potential to be shut down at any moment.

But if I may comment as well.

First, as I've publicly stated on this site, anyone that works for GM and doesn't feel accountable for the bankruptcy is kidding themselves. We all had a nickle in it.

Financially, GM could no longer sustain the costs of paying pensions and healthcare to 400,000 retirees and their dependants while only having (at that time) 125,000 workers. That would be the equivalent of starting up a lawn mowing company with 6 people mowing at full salary and another 18 sitting at home collecting reduced pay and health insurance for themselves and family. It is a business model that just can't work. Is that the fault of the union? No, not entirely, but it took a complete collapse of the company before there were significant discussions on parity with the foreign competition. And frankly I'm not sure the union could have handled it anyother way, at least based on their history here in the U.S.. If you want to win the transplants in Tenn. and Alabama by telling them you exist to defend and protect the worker, you aren't setting a good case if you give in too early.

Management, sure lots to go around there as well. But "shipping jobs overseas" started with shipping jobs South of the border. And that was all done for lower labor rates. Material costs are the same anywhere you go, but the labor to make that raw material is something you can control. And if the labor costs had remained competitive, GM, Ford and Chrysler would have kept that work here in the U.S. as would the suppliers that make the parts. Now could we have a discussion on moving work simply to keep it out of the influence of the UAW? Sure there might even have been some of that as well.

You have to remember, too, salaried employees have taken HUGE cuts over the years. So all of the UAW should not focus on the top few managers, but realize that your salary brothers and sisters took giant pension cuts, they basically pay their first $5,000 in health care costs when they retire and lost health care all together after 65 and that is for those that hired in a longggg time ago. Me? I can work till I'm 65 and maybe get the same pension a UAW retire gets TODAY. But I won't get any health care and life insurance is ZERO. And you know what? There are a lot of people that would line up to get the deal I have. So we have to always keep that in perspective.

Product decisions? Could GM have done better there? Sure, no doubt. But prior to bankruptcy GM was selling a huge amount of vehicles. But by then, not enough to pay the bills and service the debt, which was crushing. GM simply imploded and there was simply nothing more that could be done.

Our government? Now IN MY OPINION that is where most of the problem lies. Of course you have to give credit to the UAW (and others) for the advancement of the standard of living in our country. Good pay, benefits, vacation etc. But our government had no real long term vision on how to protect that and sustain it.

But at the end of the day, it is simply us. In Japan and Germany, both countries with Unions (VERY Storng in Germany) and companies that are also trying to make huge profits to satisfy banks and stock holders. But they have a huge home market advantage. People don't and won't buy foreign goods, and if they do, there better be an assembly plant making it in their country. A friend who worked in Germany told me once, half joking (I hope), that in Germany, your plastic picnic forks better say "made in Germany" on them.

As a side note, when I traveled to Germany 2 years ago for GM, I looked over and saw an empty Walmart store. I was told it was closing as Germans wouldn't shop there. Apparently the "we offer the lowest prices" model didn't matter to Germans.

So if the American people won't pay a premium for "made in the USA", then businesses have to be cost competitive to survive. And for a business, surviving means making profits. Just like every other company in the world. It's not a dirty word, it's just a fact.

So everbody is playing a part. I like to say the American people chased our textile companies out of business so we coud save .50 on a pair of socks. And fundamentally that is how the American people opperate. We want a deal, the lowest cost and the way for more people to have more stuff is to get the cost down. And back to where we started, the way to get the cost down is to source labor to the lowest cost supplier and that, my friends, at least for the forseeable future is China.

So I guess it's human nature for labor to blame management and management to blame labor. But in my humble opinion, both get full credit as part of the same enterprise, sharing equal amounts of blame. And without a homefield advantage to sustain higher wages and profits, jobs get moved. Sad but also true.

By the way, why can James, Wade and Bosh go looking for contracts that pay them $30 million a year and that's ok. But a when a man or woman responsible for the livelihood for thousands or even hundreds of thousands of workers and retirees gets a huge salary it is reprehensible? Just asking.

.....again. I think I'm going to just let you talk for me, Jim.

Originally Posted by HeHasReturned

I can't really comment on the university scale, but pre-college, or up through high school, foreign countries are WAY ahead of us. I can go on to recount multiple personal experiences, but I don't feel like it right now. To put my message briefly, I would be worried.:(

Ahead? By what measure? Because there are MANY......

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I don't think its legislation that drove the cost of living up in every developed country. And with increased cost of living comes demand for higher pay. Even if you removed minimum wage, there is no way that you could get people to work for $1.00/hr (and therefore be competitive with overseas workers). They'd have a hard time feeding themselves, let alone their family or afford things like a place to live.

There is a correlation between minimum wage and inflation. Businesses that are effected by this type of regulation has to increase the amount of money their good is sold for in order to overcome the added expense of minimum wages. When the prices of goods are rising, so does the cost of living.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by a_Username

There is a correlation between minimum wage and inflation. Businesses that are effected by this type of regulation has to increase the amount of money their good is sold for in order to overcome the added expense of minimum wages. When the prices of goods are rising, so does the cost of living.

But what causes people to need a higher minimum wage? Claiming it causes inflation seems backwards to me. Things become more expensive, so people need to be paid more in order to meet their needs. Sure, after that it becomes somewhat cyclical, for the reasons you said. But the first link in the chain isn't increased wages for the people at the bottom.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

But what causes people to need a higher minimum wage? Claiming it causes inflation seems backwards to me. Things become more expensive, so people need to be paid more in order to meet their needs. Sure, after that it becomes somewhat cyclical, for the reasons you said. But the first link in the chain isn't increased wages for the people at the bottom.

People do not "need" a higher minimum wage. They want higher wages for numerous reasons, and with an active minimum wage law they obviously attain these increases in pay. That is what starts the cycle, the wants and not the need.

http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/repo...i-Min_Wage.pdf

The UK's introduction of a national minimum wage law has frankly had the inverse effects it intended. Employers did not hire as many employees, reduced their current employee's hours, increased prices of their goods, and have forced their current employees to be more productive.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by a_Username

People do not "need" a higher minimum wage. They want higher wages for numerous reasons, and with an active minimum wage law they obviously attain these increases in pay. That is what starts the cycle, the wants and not the need.

http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/repo...i-Min_Wage.pdf

The UK's introduction of a national minimum wage law has frankly had the inverse effects it intended. Employers did not hire as many employees, reduced their current employee's hours, increased prices of their goods, and have forced their current employees to be more productive.

When food, housing, utilities, and fuel prices go up people don't need to be paid more? They just want to be paid more?

[HeHasReturned]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Our higher education institutions, as well as higher education in the United States, is top-notch relative to the rest of the world.

Like I said, I can only comment on education up until college, not after, but from what I see pre-college, we are behind. Then I'm willing to take your word for it that it gets better higher up

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

When food, housing, utilities, and fuel prices go up people don't need to be paid more? They just want to be paid more?

That is not what I'm saying. If you take away what causes the prices to go up, then your question needs not to be answered. What is the cause of this inflation? Again, there are numerous reasons to why and minimum wage laws are one of them.

The concept of minimum wage is flawed. Your economic textbooks even tell you this, but what is more ironic is that the laws actually hurt the poorest and least productive peoples in the workforce.