GM to shutdown Factories

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by protovack

Nothing like a little corporate restructuring to bring all the GM naysayers out of the woodwork to bash GM and predict its failure. Funny, you'd never know that there are so many intelligent, visionary executives sitting around on Camaro6.com who could solve all of GMs problems in 5 minutes because they're so much smarter than the people running a global corporation that sells hundreds of thousands of cars every year. I appreciate the critical viewpoint, and its important to keep GM accountable, absolutely. But the level of discourse in this thread is grade school level at best. Most people have absolutely no clue what kinds of sacrifices and hard decisions it takes to keep a huge company running and thriving, in a market where there is such insane competition. All the companies have their issues, even the german luxury makers have big issues. VW for god's sake there are hundreds of thousands of VW cars sitting rotting in parking lots right now due to essentially corporate fraud on a grand scale.

People in the US have this myopic view of the world where GM is evil, GM is the only car company in the world with problems, GM is sponging off the american taxpayers which is a load of BS, often spoken by people with an agenda to push. The euro companies have it stupidly simple compared to GM--all their employees live in semi-socialist nanny states and they have healthcare and benefits all guaranteed by the government already. GM has provided huge amounts of economic growth in this country and has stuck around in places where nobody else would go. You don't think the other companies try to play the system? The ONLY reason toyota and others have plants in the USA is because those states basically said we'll give you a free ride. If they hadn't been willing to do that, the companies would be somewhere else too. It's essentially a repeat of history in a different place. Some day, the Toyota plant in Kentucky will close and leave a few thousand people without jobs.

One must deal in economic realities. GM can't stay in Detroit forever, or Oshawa forever. As long as you want to show up on a Chevrolet lot and expect to walk away with a car for thousands less than MSRP every time, then you have to deal with the consequences of those type of expectations. Paying the healthcare costs and benefits for American workers is super expensive. I wonder how many people would actually choose to pay more for their car knowing that it was made in the USA by workers with great stable jobs with benefits. Sure a lot of people will claim of course they would, but when it comes down to signing the papers, people want to pay as little as possible and get as much as possible.

You are paying the healthcare and retirement for government workers aren't you? They seem to stay in business and they produce nothing. When trucks are discounted thousands of dollars GM is still making a profit. All you have to do is listen to buyers, not Bean counters. Stop building the same damn vehicle for more than 3 years.

[Chazzz]

It wasn’t just the auto industry that got bailed out but it was most anything too big to fail including the banks.. Even though the bailouts were far from fair I would really hate to see where this country would be today without them. In the past GM would have simply put huge incentives on the hoods of these slow selling cars to keep them in production, even at a loss. As tough of a decision this whole thing is it does lead me to believe that the company has learned at least something from it’s past mistakes.....

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Doc

You need to look at the practices; the attitudes and behaviors from all sectors that brought about the problem in the first place. Change that first, or they'll just do the same thing they've been doing and be back in the same position when they run out of the money you threw at them.

That's exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't want GM to go out of business per se, but I DEFINITELY wanted wanted to see everyone who worked there at the time circa 2008 to be permanently relieved of their duties as a stipulation of the bailout. The company should have been placed into a trust of some sort while all of the old regime is removed and new operations managers are appointed. People from the outside, fresh out of college or from other car companies. They come in and look at EVERYTHING from top to bottom, side to side, and make appropriate changes.

From that standpoint, no one is emotionally connected to the old GM, nor is anyone ingrained with the old habits that got GM into that position in the first place.

Today we have Mary Barra as the CEO, who is a GM lifer. She got her start at 18 at the Hamtramck assembly in quality control, ironically. That was in 1980.

We all know very well what quality control at GM was in 1980.

Do you think after 38 years with GM, 28 with the old GM, she somehow had an epiphany and her whole attitude and approach just changed after the bankruptcy was approved?

[fastball]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

I'll answer it. Yes there are reasons we should listen, maybe that person has insight into how things happened, but was not the CEO and not responsible for the decisions that led to bankruptcy. Perhaps we should hold contempt only for the C suites responsible for making decisions.

I'd love to, but it takes more than big wigs to fail the way GM failed. It was systemic and an ingrained culture that went all the way down to the floor sweepers.

Besides, by keeping people at the top like Barra who's been there since 1980 the new GM really isn't much different than the old GM.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Doc

I think he was making the point that Number 3 SHOULD be listened to, as his insights are valuable to help understand what went on and why. You can't come up with a solution for the effect, until you understand the cause that brought it about in the first place.

My point is that Number 3 was just as much a part of the epic failure as Roger Smith and Rick Wagoner. Everyone from the top down played a part in it. To fail that big, that hard, and for that long, goes far beyond the BOD and the CEO. Engineering, quality control, the UAW, advertising..... they all played their part.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Silverado57

Has anyone mentioned the role Unions play in the cost of labor and goods produced?
Asking for a friend...

Has anyone mentioned that GM would be hiring Illegals and the Chinese if Unions didn't exist and firing Americans. Oh Wait!!

[fastball]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Has anyone mentioned that GM would be hiring Illegals and the Chinese if Unions didn't exist and firing Americans. Oh Wait!!

Meanwhile down the street at Honda, on the other side of Ohio, their assembly crew has never been laid off and they are all very reasonably paid non-union Ohioans.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by fastball

That's exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't want GM to go out of business per se, but I DEFINITELY wanted wanted to see everyone who worked there at the time circa 2008 to be permanently relieved of their duties as a stipulation of the bailout. The company should have been placed into a trust of some sort while all of the old regime is removed and new operations managers are appointed. People from the outside, fresh out of college or from other car companies. They come in and look at EVERYTHING from top to bottom, side to side, and make appropriate changes.

From that standpoint, no one is emotionally connected to the old GM, nor is anyone ingrained with the old habits that got GM into that position in the first place.

Today we have Mary Barra as the CEO, who is a GM lifer. She got her start at 18 at the Hamtramck assembly in quality control, ironically. That was in 1980.

We all know very well what quality control at GM was in 1980.

Do you think after 38 years with GM, 28 with the old GM, she somehow had an epiphany and her whole attitude and approach just changed after the bankruptcy was approved?

If you've been reading my posts, and I know you have, then you know that I am very vocal about the roadblock to success that GM's management is and has become. They got lucky with the 5th gen because a designer/enthusiast came up with the sketch, and they had long-time enthusiasts in the company who lobbied to produce it. They got lucky because the Transformers movie used that car as Bumble Bee. They got lucky when the SUV/truck market became the hot item, and were able to take advantage of it. I say "lucky" because none of that was due to their vision or leadership. In fact, you could say it happened in spite of them.

Ford created the Pony Car market in the 60's. The Germans created the economic 'people's car' market with the Volkswagen. The Japanese created the economy car market in the 70's. When our labor unions created a labor force that couldn't be fired, they began to think they were entitled to their job no matter what, and started doing the minimum effort which produced the lousy quality that our auto industry became known for, starting in the 70's. When that happened, the Japanese and Germans began producing quality cars that Americans began buying because they were built better. Those two cultures were discipline and honor based, whereas ours became entitled based. They took pride in what they did. Ours took advantage of not being able to get fired. They got fired eventually, when the companies/divisions they worked in went out of business. So who did they blame? "It's those foreigners!"

It's a long story with a lot of background that extends out across all layers of our society, it's not just GM or the auto industry. It all starts with attitudes and behaviors, and changing that is the only thing that's going to bring about the solution to the problems we're facing.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Doc

Well now, aren't YOU the superior one! Doing exactly what you're claiming others are doing. Grade school level? And you're qualified to judge everyone... how? It's a forum, not an executive meeting. I wouldn't want to run GM; being CEO consumes you, every second of your life's energy.

You've dramatically over-simplified "people in the US" in order to make your point which isn't actually much above grade school itself. There's a lot to being in business in this country, much of which deals with regulations and legal issues. The costs of keeping lawyers on retainer or actually on the payroll is staggering. If you're in business, especially a large corporation, you're going to get sued; guaranteed. They don't have those issues overseas, so their money doesn't go into that bucket. There's OBVIOUSLY a lot more to all this; just because we haven't mentioned it in here (yet) doesn't mean people aren't aware or understand it.



Not being rude is part of being civil, which goes a long way towards possibly solving an issue instead of inflaming it and making it worse. You are clearly of that newer generation that thinks their opinion is 'fact', and by declaring it so, that must make it true. Number 3's assessment of the situation tells you a lot about what has been going on inside GM, which is an extremely valuable insight. He was with them for a long time.



Yes, I did mention it. It's not just the cost of labor, a huge chunk of the cost of doing business for GM is the retirements they have to pay for; it's in the billions. Retirements are part of the union contracts. That's an expense that overseas labor generally doesn't have to carry. Those foreign companies that are building cars here, do have to consider those expenses, and they also have to deal with the regulations and legal expenses doing business here brings. However since their management is based on the foreign cultures they came from, their attitudes and behaviors are different. They have a different outlook on what to do and how to do it.

There's a lot more to this whole situation than can be discussed in a medium like this, but some of it deals with attitudes and behavior of the working class, but especially the attitudes and behavior of the ruling class; the management.

Doing business in America doesn't automatically mean you're at a disadvantage, but you have to be aware of the differences between American culture, both as customers and workers, compared to what you'll see in other countries; especially the labor market countries like China, Mexico and India. China and India have the advantage of economy of scale; they have more workers available than we have people. China has a population of 1.5 billion, India has reached 1 billion. Even though Mexico doesn't have a large population like those other two countries, Mexico has the advantage of location. The logistics of producing in Mexico is better than either China or India.

Then you have culture. All 3 of those countries populations and cultures don't have the same expectations that ours does. In China or India, if you don't like the working conditions, there are 100 million people outside who will gladly take your place. We don't have that issue here. In the U.S., we have the cultural mentality of being entitled and demanding; give me what I want or I'll sue. Give me what I want or I'll attack; agree with me or I'll attack. It's completely different than what you see elsewhere. Our 'poor' are not at all like the poor in other countries. Chinese poor are POOR, and 75% of that 1.5 billion population are poor. That's a massive labor pool that will pretty much do just about anything to keep from starving to death. "I'm inside out of the weather, I have a bowl of rice and I get paid? I'll take it!" We don't have that here.

There's so much more to this story than can be talked about in here, otherwise it would start looking like a novel. Just because people on a forum aren't running the companies being discussed, doesn't mean they are stupid, inexperienced and don't have valid ideas. It's like someone in a bad relationship; everyone around them can see it, but the person in it can't see it clearly. For us, GM is that relationship right now.

The problems American manufacturing have are a combination of management attitude, worker skill and attitude, and government attitude and behavior. All of that started a long time ago; it's been going on for decades. It's all about people; their expectations, perceptions, attitudes and behavior. You see it in here, you see it in politics, you see it in business, you see it in the schools, you see it in society. Bad attitudes bring bad results; good attitudes bring better results. Good attitudes combined with confidence and vision can bring great results, but in every case, good attitudes always have to deal with those with bad attitudes. It's a constant drag on progress, society, and quality of life. Even simple conversation is compromised by bad attitudes.

America as a nation can do what no nation before it ever has, did or could... as long as we're united. We can only be conquered when we're divided. We can be conquered politically, industrially, commercially, economically if we can be divided as a society and culture. It begins with attitude, which leads to behavior. Everything else is the result of those two things.

Reasonable post. One thing left out is that Americans endured great sacrifice in blood and treasure so business and citizen could thrive in this country. Businesses in this country might consider the sacrifices made so they can be in business. They owe those who sacrificed in a moral sense.

[ecko04]

This thread is on the brink.

Mods have to start issuing some temp bans or something. Every controversial topic devolves into name calling, cursing and political tirades. Civilized discourse has been abandoned.

[Jeb114]

General Motors said Monday it is cutting 15 percent of its salaried North American workforce, ending production of some slow-selling vehicles and halting production at several plants.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by fastball

I'd love to, but it takes more than big wigs to fail the way GM failed. It was systemic and an ingrained culture that went all the way down to the floor sweepers.

Besides, by keeping people at the top like Barra who's been there since 1980 the new GM really isn't much different than the old GM.

I don't think you are correct. The hourly employee has no say in how the company is run. That is done by the Bean counters.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by fastball

Meanwhile down the street at Honda, on the other side of Ohio, their assembly crew has never been laid off and they are all very reasonably paid non-union Ohioans.

None of that junk in my driveway.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Reasonable post. One thing left out is that Americans endured great sacrifice in blood and treasure so business and citizen could thrive in this country. Businesses in this country might consider the sacrifices made so they can be in business. They owe those who sacrificed in a moral sense.

Yes, but look at what that represents; a great attitude and behavior. Our soldiers represent the very spirit of America; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and a willingness to defend that freedom with their very lives if necessary. That's how valuable it is, and I thank God we have people who are willing to defend it.

That's why I make the effort to not squander those sacrifices, by participating in discussion to help improve our lives and society, which includes business and government.