Ford gunning for the Z/28?

[Jims Mongoose]

Originally Posted by 87GNX

Well to be fair, Camaros have always been the lesser brother to the corvettes, no offense here as I love the LS3 but it will never recieve the same goodies.

We have to be second fiddle to the Stang because of the big brother vette.

That is rediculous, pisses me off.


Are there people out there that have modified the LS3 for much better breathing and RPM to put out more power at higher RPMs; say 7000 or more?

Jim

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Jims Mongoose

Is this Ford engine a 350 cubic inch engine?

If so how come they can release it at 550 hp why GM wont release the bigger 427 cubic inch LS7 to at least 550 Hp or more?

Related question. I see many guys on this forum struggle to get over 500 rwhp in an NA engine. The crank power of such an engine should be around 575 or so. That is with the 6.2 liter which I believe is 376 cubic inches.

So again why are the chevy engines struggling to get there and ford can put out a 550 hp engine right out of the factory. You know that car will be street driveable so how do they do it.

Real answers please no silly things like "duh, well Ford engines are just better."

Jim

You seem so sure that Ford will hit 550 hp with some engine that we know nothing about. They haven't cracked 450 yet with a factory, naturally aspirated engine.

The LS7 is limited by emissions regulations, not the engine itself. You can buy crate LS7s in the 650 hp range, naturally aspirated. There are people hitting 500 whp with the LS1, which is a 5.7, so I have no doubt the LS3 and now LT1 can do it.


If they do reach 550 hp naturally aspirated, it will be at some absurdly high rpm like 8000+. The 302 Road Runner in the BOSS made peak horsepower at 7500. You can make horsepower with more torque or more rpm. Ford trades torque for higher rpm, GM trades higher rpm for more torque.

[Jims Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You seem so sure that Ford will hit 550 hp with some engine that we know nothing about. They haven't cracked 450 yet with a factory, naturally aspirated engine.

The LS7 is limited by emissions regulations, not the engine itself. You can buy crate LS7s in the 650 hp range, naturally aspirated. There are people hitting 500 whp with the LS1, which is a 5.7, so I have no doubt the LS3 and now LT1 can do it.


If they do reach 550 hp naturally aspirated, it will be at some absurdly high rpm like 8000+. The 302 Road Runner in the BOSS made peak horsepower at 7500. You can make horsepower with more torque or more rpm. Ford trades torque for higher rpm, GM trades higher rpm for more torque.

Yes you are right, I don't know about the Fords HP capability yet. Glad to see as you say our engines making some good power.
I just remember from my drag days, that engines that can make power higher in the RPM range and keep the car in a gear longer usually won the race.

I just think that we need that, maybe not as high as 7500 but our small blocks making power higher say to 7000 or a little above would remove some stang advantages.

Jim

[87GNX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You seem so sure that Ford will hit 550 hp with some engine that we know nothing about. They haven't cracked 450 yet with a factory, naturally aspirated engine.

The LS7 is limited by emissions regulations, not the engine itself. You can buy crate LS7s in the 650 hp range, naturally aspirated. There are people hitting 500 whp with the LS1, which is a 5.7, so I have no doubt the LS3 and now LT1 can do it.


If they do reach 550 hp naturally aspirated, it will be at some absurdly high rpm like 8000+. The 302 Road Runner in the BOSS made peak horsepower at 7500. You can make horsepower with more torque or more rpm. Ford trades torque for higher rpm, GM trades higher rpm for more torque.

the boss 302 is already 450+ they underrated it as well as the gt which is more like 430 hp....I have seen plenty of dynos that prove it's very close with drivetrain loss %. Anyways, Ford has to match or surpass the z/28 with this new gt 350 or it will be a huge fail and egos hurt across the board. the chief mustang engineer is as passionate as big al. these guys LOVE their job.

[LOWDOWN]

Jim, the answer to your question would take a books-worth of words to explain...or rather, debate.

Quickly (the Cliff's Notes version if you please), you need to do a cost-benefits analysis.

How many V8s does GM sell in a year? How many of those buyers care a whit about an 8,000 rpm capability?

VVT can replicate, in many ways, what OHC architecture may benefit from, in certain circumstances (hp vs. lb-ft), but VVT causes max. rpm trade-offs. So, if the vast majority of V8s are installed in heavy vehicles (trucks and SUVs), what does the typical truck owner want/need/feel? TORQUE, especially when offered in larger displacements. What's the largest V8 displacement that Ford offers? 6.2L...in the Raptor...because it's very heavy and needs ALL the torque it can muster. Typically, Ford's V8 of choice has been 4.6 and now 5.0L. Generally smaller in displacement than GM's 4.8-5.3-5.7-6.0-6.2 bread 'n butter engines. And Ford's engines typically have offered less max torque.

Everyone has been "educated" to look at lb/hp as some magic deal, which is applicable when classing vehicles for drag racing. What a daily driver REALLY should be measured by is lb/lb-ft and, when compared that way, GM does an excellent job (especially when you consider GM's pickups weigh less than their Ford counterparts through the '14 Model Year).

The other advantages of the GM pushrod vs. former conventional Ford OHC V8s has been weight and physical size (the current big 5.8 and 6.2 Fords are wider than the BOSS 429 and 427 SOHC Fords were!). And BOTH of those factors are VERY important, moving forward, what with car sizes under scrutiny and weight being a significant factor in fuel economy.

Lastly, winding a engine to 8,000 rpm is tough on internals (regardless of architecture) and tough on fuel economy. Parts necessary to allow such events are 'spensive, and the higher you wind it, the more likely shorter-term maintenance and repair will be required (again, regardless of architecture). Those stratospheric revs and mega-power ratings take more fuel to create and sustain, as well. CAFE '16 is nigh...

This, my friend, only scratches the surface of a lengthy, exhaustive, thorough debate...but I hope it helps.

[big hammer]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

How is it more advanced? Would you say that it is more advanced than the LT1 even though it lacks direct injection and cylinder deactivation?

the weak minded just can't get past the ricer math.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Jims Mongoose

Yes you are right, I don't know about the Fords HP capability yet. Glad to see as you say our engines making some good power.
I just remember from my drag days, that engines that can make power higher in the RPM range and keep the car in a gear longer usually won the race.

I just think that we need that, maybe not as high as 7500 but our small blocks making power higher say to 7000 or a little above would remove some stang advantages.

Jim

Those cars also are difficult to drive on the streets because they are build for high rpm power, not low rpm torque. Variable valve timing can help to overcome that.

Originally Posted by 87GNX

the boss 302 is already 450+ they underrated it as well as the gt which is more like 430 hp....I have seen plenty of dynos that prove it's very close with drivetrain loss %. Anyways, Ford has to match or surpass the z/28 with this new gt 350 or it will be a huge fail and egos hurt across the board. the chief mustang engineer is as passionate as big al. these guys LOVE their job.

The Road Runner is SAE net 444 HP and 380 TQ. I don't see how it can be underrated unless SAE is lying.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

If you have the breathing capabilities to run to a higher rpm, you'll make more power. Pushrod NASCAR 358s are capable of near-900 hp @ over 9,000 rpm...but they're hardly streetable let alone EPA-CAFE-able...or a 5/100 warranty...

I love those motors. Many would argue that NASCAR is just a bunch of hillbillies driving fast in circles (I'll withhold my own opinion) but regardless, a motor of that size running 8-9000 rpms for a few thousand miles is pretty sweet.

I remember when a 5500 rpm redline on an American V8 was pretty neat.

Now we're flirting with 8,000?

Not to drag everything off topic, but I think once we see where the GT falls on this new model (1LE territory I'd imagine) we'll be able to have more fun discussions about special models for the future.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by joelster

The Coyote engine is much more sophisticated then the LS7. The ability to move the intake/exhaust camshafts independent of each other allows for a staggering powerband (rpm range). Spread them out at low rpm, and it idles like Grandma's Malibu. At high rpm, tighten them up for some overlap to jump start the intake event, and it'll scream to 7500rpm. 4-valves per cylinder allows much more air/fuel in, especially at lower valve lifts. There is really no comparison, the Coyote is simply a better engine. The LS7 is a very powerful engine, no doubt, but its "tech" is simply a set of heads that can flow 350cfm, and 7.0 liters of displacement. Sure you swap a camshaft into it and get crazy power, but then its idle will suffer and low rpm emissions will suffer.

Sophisticated does mean hi tech.

2 more valves per cylinder and 3 more cam shafts also does not mean hi tech.

The LS7 also has variable valve timing. And yes I would argue the plebian Coyote has a ways to go to be in the ball park of the LS7.

Coyote is NOT a better engine. It's pretty simple unless you are just counting valves and cams.

[big hammer]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sophisticated does mean hi tech.

2 more valves per cylinder and 3 more cam shafts also does not mean hi tech.

The LS7 also has variable valve timing. And yes I would argue the plebian Coyote has a ways to go to be in the ball park of the LS7.

Coyote is NOT a better engine. It's pretty simple unless you are just counting valves and cams.

I don't believe the ls7 has VVT. it doesn't really need it.

the ls7 is just a good old big v8 with tons of power and I would take it over the feminine coyote anyday.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by big hammer

I don't believe the ls7 has VVT. it doesn't really need it.

the ls7 is just a good old big v8 with tons of power and I would take it over the feminine coyote anyday.

I think you are correct. But I'll take and LS7 any day of the week over a 5.0 Coyote.

[joelster]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sophisticated does mean hi tech.

2 more valves per cylinder and 3 more cam shafts also does not mean hi tech.

The LS7 also has variable valve timing. And yes I would argue the plebian Coyote has a ways to go to be in the ball park of the LS7.

You don't understand.

Variable valve timing in the LSx family is simply limited to advancing the camshaft or retarding the camshaft. No different than taking an old school small block chevy with an adjustable timing set and moving the key way to get it 2 degrees advanced or 2 degrees retarded to alter the power. MASSIVE difference between what the Ford engine can do, by INDEPENDENTLY moving the intake camshaft and exhaust camshaft per bank. This changes the amount of overlap. If you don't understand what overlap does, then PLEASE don't reply. The LS7 has NO WAY to adjust the amount of overlap. It's ground into the camshaft. Engines with camshafts that have a lot of overlap, will jumpstart the intake event by taking advantage of the phenonenom that some call the "exhaust induced intake event". Basically as the exhaust is rushing out of the cylinder at a VERY high rate of speed, the intake valve is opening and the pressure wave of the exhaust helps to pull the fresh intake charge in.

Go to the drag strip and watch the nasty V-8 N/A cars run. They will have camshafts with 240+ degrees of duration all ground on LSA's of 108 or less. That is a reason why they can rev to 7500+rpm. A lot of duration combined with a tight LSA= a lot of overlap. The Coyote engine has the ability to tighten up the LSA as the rpm's climb, and when you take your foot off of the gas it spreads it out, so it purrs like a kitten. Or if you have a special BOSS, you can run with the RED key, and it will tighten it up all the time so you can hear the nasty lope, but lose a little low rpm power.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Coyote is NOT a better engine. It's pretty simple unless you are just counting valves and cams.

The Coyote is a better engine. Just be thankful that Ford has no way to get 7.0L out of it, or we'd all have our hands full trying to keep up with 600hp N/A Mustangs.

[87GNX]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think you are correct. But I'll take and LS7 any day of the week over a 5.0 Coyote.

Both are great, I'd love to have a twin tubro 900 hp Boss ...all stock internals with 20# of boost.....

http://powernationtv.com/episode/EP2...n-turbo-coyote

[87GNX]

Originally Posted by joelster

You don't understand.

Variable valve timing in the LSx family is simply limited to advancing the camshaft or retarding the camshaft. No different than taking an old school small block chevy with an adjustable timing set and moving the key way to get it 2 degrees advanced or 2 degrees retarded to alter the power. MASSIVE difference between what the Ford engine can do, by INDEPENDENTLY moving the intake camshaft and exhaust camshaft per bank. This changes the amount of overlap. If you don't understand what overlap does, then PLEASE don't reply. The LS7 has NO WAY to adjust the amount of overlap. It's ground into the camshaft. Engines with camshafts that have a lot of overlap, will jumpstart the intake event by taking advantage of the phenonenom that some call the "exhaust induced intake event". Basically as the exhaust is rushing out of the cylinder at a VERY high rate of speed, the intake valve is opening and the pressure wave of the exhaust helps to pull the fresh intake charge in.

Go to the drag strip and watch the nasty V-8 N/A cars run. They will have camshafts with 240+ degrees of duration all ground on LSA's of 108 or less. That is a reason why they can rev to 7500+rpm. A lot of duration combined with a tight LSA= a lot of overlap. The Coyote engine has the ability to tighten up the LSA as the rpm's climb, and when you take your foot off of the gas it spreads it out, so it purrs like a kitten. Or if you have a special BOSS, you can run with the RED key, and it will tighten it up all the time so you can hear the nasty lope, but lose a little low rpm power.



The Coyote is a better engine. Just be thankful that Ford has no way to get 7.0L out of it, or we'd all have our hands full trying to keep up with 600hp N/A Mustangs.

7.0L coyote would have gm stunned for along time.