MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[FenwickHockey65]

Not only that, but I read somewhere that GM's still trying to get the Oldsmobile shut down off their back. Closing more brands probably won't do anything for GM.

And do I need to remind everyone that GMC is GM's second best-selling division after Chevrolet?

Perhaps instead of simply giving up on brands, all we need to do is reorganize them, streamline them, get rid of overlap between them. There's been rumors going around that the Tahoe/Suburban and Escalade will go on some sort of beefed-up Lambda platform, well, if that's the case, then leave the Yukon/Yukon XL on a truck platform. I'm sure soccer moms driving Suburbans to ferry kids around don't need massive towing capabilities. Contractors or people who need tow/haul capabilities can go to GMC.

And do we really need a G3 AND an Aveo5?

[garagelogic]

Personally, I hope one or more of the big three do go under. You're right that it would be a hell of a blow to our economy, but maybe that's what is needed to bring the majority of Americans back to their senses. While the great depression of the 30's was a tough time, it gave us the "greatest" generation of Americans in its wake.

American's in general take their standard of living as an entitlement and most are willing to sacrifice nothing to ensure it remains where it is. "I" has become stronger than "we", and we are paying for our selfishness on many, many front, not just economically.

Why doesn't GM ask a bank for the loan they need to stay afloat instead of the government? Probably because no banker in their right mind would look at GM (or Ford for that matter) and consider them a good risk.

[Inspector 17]

Originally Posted by garagelogic

Personally, I hope one or more of the big three do go under. You're right that it would be a hell of a blow to our economy, but maybe that's what is needed to bring the majority of Americans back to their sense. While the great depression of the 30"s was a tough time, it gave us the "greatest" generation of Americans in its wake.

American's in general take their standard of living as an entitlement and most are willing to sacrifice nothing to ensure it remains where it is. "I" has become stronger than "we", and we are paying for our selfishness on many, many front, not just economically.

Why doesn't GM ask a bank for the loan they need to stay afloat instead of the government? Probably because no banker in their right mind would look at GM (or Ford for that matter) and consider them a good risk.

While I certainly don't want to see people suffering, I have to agree with much of what you typed here. As a country, we have definitely become too lazy, too spoiled and too selfish (in general). Go to China or India and see how people live there. We have no idea how good we have it yet we are always complaining and expecting more. It isn't wrong to want a good life, but how much is too much and at what cost? If we don't re-evaluate our position and rebalance things just a bit, we are going to be in big trouble.

[garagelogic]

Originally Posted by camaropete

While I certainly don't want to see people suffering, I have to agree with much of what you typed here. As a country, we have definitely become too lazy, too spoiled and too selfish (in general). Go to China or India and see how people live there. We have no idea how good we have it yet we are always complaining and expecting more. It isn't wrong to want a good life, but how much is too much and at what cost? If we don't re-evaluate our position and rebalance things just a bit, we are going to be in big trouble.

We're already in big trouble, and it's going to get way worse before it gets better if history is any indication. It really didn't matter who was elected President, the wheels of financial chaos are already past the point of no return and no amount of taxation, loans, bailouts or "stimulus" by the federal government is going to change it. Only the consumers, you and I, can make the difference. The question is whether or not we're willing to do what it takes or simply expect our neighbor to do it for us.

[Inspector 17]

Originally Posted by garagelogic

We're already in big trouble, and it's going to get way worse before it gets better if history is any indication. It really didn't matter who was elected President, the wheels of financial chaos are already past the point of no return and no amount of taxation, loans, bailouts or "stimulus" by the federal government is going to change it. Only the consumers, you and I, can make the difference. The question is whether or not we're willing to do what it takes or simply expect our neighbor to do it for us.

I am talking about beyond the financial situation. That is merely a natural part of the capitalistic system. The market is finally corrected itself for all the stupid stuff we have been doing for the past 12 years. The telecom bubble was the start of it correcting itself. I am talking more about our attitudes. We all want more money and to spend less so we buy at Wal-Mart. Then we complain that China is getting all our money.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by camaropete

We all want more money and to spend less so we buy at Wal-Mart. Then we complain that China is getting all our money.

Or when buy toyotas just to follow the sheep herd and "fit in," then complain and criticize when GM's forced to cut product programs and lay people off.

[Inspector 17]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Or when buy toyotas just to follow the sheep herd and "fit in," then complain and criticize when GM's forced to cut product programs and lay people off.

Well, the other part of this is that US workers want more and more money, but are complaining when companies send their jobs overseas to countries where people work 16 hour days for $20 a day (if that). It is a very vicious circle.

[Fandango]

GM is not going down.

FOR THE RECORD: I HATE THESE POSTS!

Chrysler stock is up, Ford stock is at $2.02, and GM is at $4 and change. Up from last week. This is the lowest that they've been in a while. However, this has been the hardest hit the economy has ever taken. Everyone has to remember the 70's. GM has already made their 2009 budget, So has Ford and Chrysler. They know that their is a growing degree of uncertainty in the economy and are asking for a bail outs so to cover their future. Media post these articles causing people to sell their stock and it drives down the price. Sometimes companies do this to drive down the stock in order for companies to buy back the stocks. Stock is only worth what youy pay for it. When there is less consumer trading and more bailing on the stock, it goes down. DEMAND! Now there is too much stock out their, no one is buing it. SUPPLY. Then the economy itself is in turmoil so no one buys cars as much. Demand for cars in general is way down. Only reason you don't hear about Toyota and Honda right now is because they are not as in dire straits as Ford or GM who depended a lot on SUV sales. But the out industry as a whole is down. Not just GM.

Finally, Volt comes out and lays an egg, then you'd better start worrying. But if Volt comes out makes a moderate dent. That will end the spiral, not completely save GM but it will give breathing room while GM slowly but surely makes a transition to more fuel efficiant cars. GM is in the news because the take the most proactive aproach to this crisis to save themselves. There's so much more I can talk about but I'll spare you.

Rest asureed we will still see GM, Chrylser and the blue oval.

[garagelogic]

Originally Posted by Fandango

Rest asureed we will still see GM, Chrylser and the blue oval.

I agree, I think two of the three will survive, but at what cost and for how long. They have to correct the behavior that them where they are before any amount of money or consumer demand can redeem them.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by PsyDoc

Remember though, GM is paying health costs of its retirees. The latest budget I heard this morning was that the big three now want $50 billion and 50% of that will go directly to covering retiree benefits. At some point, regardless of how much "leaner" the big three get, the costs of providing for retirees will become overly burdensome.

Unfortunately this was ultimately GM's biggest mistake even though it was great for all the former employees whom retired under the old very generous system. Let's pray things get better and they can come out of their current situation.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

wow -- Guys and Gals -- I can't keep up with the threads on THIS site let alone the many other sites I try to visit.

>It's easy to say "you should have gotten rid of Pontiac/Buick/GMC/etc a while ago...........really? Did ANYONE see this disaster coming down the pike? (I mean the mortage meltdown followed by $4.00 gas followed by the Banking Industry meltdown - all in what? 9 months????? Would YOU get rid of a Division that sells over a half million profitable units a year??? WOULD YOU? Would you be SURE that all of those sales would flow to another GM Division? What about overhead you CAN'T just cut? Close a plant? That does NOT mean the costs stop -- go look at what we must pay those who are not working! Further, the cost to close one Division is well into the BILLIONS of dollars..........

I'd drop GMC in a New York minute! Every plant they are using are also building Chevy's and everything GMC is selling can be managed by the Chevrolet division.

If you want to keep the GMC line, give it all to Pontiac and they can just call all their trucks GMC's. The entire management at GMC is redundant I'm sorry to say.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I'd drop GMC in a New York minute! Every plant they are using are also building Chevy's and everything GMC is selling can be managed by the Chevrolet division.

If you want to keep the GMC line, give it all to Pontiac and they can just call all their trucks GMC's. The entire management at GMC is redundant I'm sorry to say.

Sure. Let's drop our second best-selling division!

There's a very complex solution to the whole, "OMGZZ GMC SELLS NOTHING BUT REBADGED CHEVYS" problem, but I don't have the time nor patience to explain my whole idea. But in a nutshell, if I were in charge of GM for a day, I'd make GMC a special-order only brand, providing upscale, fully customizable models of Chevy's trucks. Reduces production output as you wouldn't have to produce say 5,000 Sierras in conjunction with 10,000 Silverados. Just produce the 2,000 Sierras ordered, then the 10,000 Silverados as usual.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Sure. Let's drop our second best-selling division!

"Our"? Truth is, they would not lose very many sales. I drive a GMC Yukon and what do you think I'd do if I could not buy another Yukon? Go out and buy a Toyota or Ford? Most of us GMC drivers know we are driving Chevy's with different logo's - we are not so stupid to believe we are driving a truly unique product. I'd still get to choose between a Tahoe, Suburban and Escalade.

If GM droped GMC division and let Pontiac manage the GMC truck line then the products would still be available. If I am not mistaken, most Pontiac dealerships also sell GMC so there would be little changed at the dealerships. Again - GMC managers are redundant.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Hylton

"Our"? Truth is, they would not lose very many sales. I drive a GMC Yukon and what do you think I'd do if I could not buy another Yukon? Go out and buy a Toyota or Ford? Most of us GMC drivers know we are driving Chevy's with different logo's - we are not so stupid to believe we are driving a truly unique product. I'd still get to choose between a Tahoe, Suburban and Escalade.

If GM droped GMC division and let Pontiac manage the GMC truck line then the products would still be available. If I am not mistaken, most Pontiac dealerships also sell GMC so there would be little changed at the dealerships. Again - GMC managers are redundant.

I always say "our" because like it or not, we're all in this together. Especially people who depend on GM for income.

I'm not so sure that all GMC drivers would go to Chevy and Cadillac. The ones who are loyal to GM, and not GMC, would. But I think we've learned from the Oldsmobile experiment that killing brands almost always leads to bad repercussions. I'm sure GM thought that most Oldsmobile owners would go to Buick or Cadillac. Wrong.
And GM's put too much money into emphasizing the fact that Pontiac will be a "performance" brand from here on out, no matter how dumb the whole "Pontiac is car" slogan is. Trucks are what they've been trying to get away from for the last couple years, which is why the Torrent's being dropped this year. Even the G8 ST could technically be thought of as a performance car, as it's nothing but a truck bed stapled to the front of a G8.

Something a lot of people need to remember is that the majority of consumers are not like us, the enthusiasts. The majority buys what they need, when they need it, and from whoever gives them the best price. There's a lot of people out there driving cars from one single GM division who refuse to buy from another GM division, even if they offer more or less the same car. It's the people who are loyal to the brand, and not the company, that makes killing off divisions risky.