GM to shutdown Factories

[Silverado57]

Has anyone mentioned the role Unions play in the cost of labor and goods produced?
Asking for a friend...

[Tyl3r]

What happens when unions inflate labor costs and its members can no longer compete on a global scale. Gotta love economics.

[Aragorn]

I believe unions in this country have very little power, especially compared to other regions of the world.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Tyl3r

What happens when unions inflate labor costs and its members can no longer compete on a global scale. Gotta love economics.

That statement is painful in how succinct it is.

Everything is a race to the bottom. People may vote with their dollars for the better quality product, until the company making the cheaper product eventually comes out with increasingly adequate product. Case in point: Kia.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Would you pay $3000 for an "American" TV vs. $1500 for the same specs "Korean made" TV? How about $2000 vs. $1500?

How about $500,000 for a house built by 5th generation, English only speaking citizens, vs. the same exact house next door for $400,000 built by Juan, Jose and Federico, who's boss may or may not have validated their "status"?

What are "American made" grill brands? (and yes, you can buy a $7000.00 American Made grill, i.e. Lynx and Alfresco)

Weber (a staunchly "American Made" company, as an example of our global economy, makes (assembles) all their spirit and genesis (their two low end series) in China, their Summit series is assembled in the US with globally sourced parts, i.e. China, is that "Made in America?"

You think that $1500 gun safe is made in America...it's not. The company only makes their $5000 safes in America.

The point is, we live in a global economy, and many companies are in a constant battle to provide comparable products at a cheaper price to gain sales and market share. Sometimes i think it's quite ridiculous and I'd pay an extra $2 or so for a pack of strawberries from California over a pack from Mexico.
However, IMO, when it comes to many other consumer items, for them to be made in America and for that company to compete in the market, their margins would be too small to be sustainable, and for them to stay in business and keep employees, they simply have to go outside of this country. So the trade off is keeping the principle of "I will absolutely be made in America" and therefore going out of business out of spite, or increase margins and keep your business running and keep Americans employed by embracing the global economic reality.

Something I think NEVER gets discussed, or when it does it's always "oooh corporations are evil they must be taxed and heavily" is why our government doesn't change or adapt tax laws to make it far more lucrative for a company to make everything in America even while paying Americans a solid $20.00/hr. Don't fight corporations, embrace them. Make it so companies make far more money producing every single component in that television here in America while paying Americans $20.00/hr AND still sell that 60" LED TV for $1500.00 AND the corporation makes FAR more profits in doing so than if they produced it anywhere else in the world.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by protovack

Nothing like a little corporate restructuring to bring all the GM naysayers out of the woodwork to bash GM and predict its failure. Funny, you'd never know that there are so many intelligent, visionary executives sitting around on Camaro6.com who could solve all of GMs problems in 5 minutes because they're so much smarter than the people running a global corporation that sells hundreds of thousands of cars every year. I appreciate the critical viewpoint, and its important to keep GM accountable, absolutely. But the level of discourse in this thread is grade school level at best. Most people have absolutely no clue what kinds of sacrifices and hard decisions it takes to keep a huge company running and thriving, in a market where there is such insane competition. All the companies have their issues, even the german luxury makers have big issues. VW for god's sake there are hundreds of thousands of VW cars sitting rotting in parking lots right now due to essentially corporate fraud on a grand scale.

People in the US have this myopic view of the world where GM is evil, GM is the only car company in the world with problems, GM is sponging off the american taxpayers which is a load of BS, often spoken by people with an agenda to push. The euro companies have it stupidly simple compared to GM--all their employees live in semi-socialist nanny states and they have healthcare and benefits all guaranteed by the government already. GM has provided huge amounts of economic growth in this country and has stuck around in places where nobody else would go. You don't think the other companies try to play the system? The ONLY reason toyota and others have plants in the USA is because those states basically said we'll give you a free ride. If they hadn't been willing to do that, the companies would be somewhere else too. It's essentially a repeat of history in a different place. Some day, the Toyota plant in Kentucky will close and leave a few thousand people without jobs.

One must deal in economic realities. GM can't stay in Detroit forever, or Oshawa forever. As long as you want to show up on a Chevrolet lot and expect to walk away with a car for thousands less than MSRP every time, then you have to deal with the consequences of those type of expectations. Paying the healthcare costs and benefits for American workers is super expensive. I wonder how many people would actually choose to pay more for their car knowing that it was made in the USA by workers with great stable jobs with benefits. Sure a lot of people will claim of course they would, but when it comes down to signing the papers, people want to pay as little as possible and get as much as possible.

Well now, aren't YOU the superior one! Doing exactly what you're claiming others are doing. Grade school level? And you're qualified to judge everyone... how? It's a forum, not an executive meeting. I wouldn't want to run GM; being CEO consumes you, every second of your life's energy.

You've dramatically over-simplified "people in the US" in order to make your point which isn't actually much above grade school itself. There's a lot to being in business in this country, much of which deals with regulations and legal issues. The costs of keeping lawyers on retainer or actually on the payroll is staggering. If you're in business, especially a large corporation, you're going to get sued; guaranteed. They don't have those issues overseas, so their money doesn't go into that bucket. There's OBVIOUSLY a lot more to all this; just because we haven't mentioned it in here (yet) doesn't mean people aren't aware or understand it.

Originally Posted by fastball

I do not care who he is, nor do I care about being rude. People need to stop being so hurt about comments and look at reality and the facts. Quit being so emotional.

You agree with me. So why defend him or "be nice" when his perception is so out of touch with reality, frankly, only being rude and straight forward may get him to rethink everything?

I am making a very clear point based on what is reality, not what his expertise and experience says. The company I work for never had to crawl to the government to beg for money to keep the lights on, and we're pretty old. To be honest, there's very few people who've worked for GM in the past 40 years that you could say actually know how to run a business successfully. Does Apple run to GM to pick executives? I do not care if he's Mary Barra. His assessment of this is wrong. Not my opinion, fact.

That is part of what really makes GM such an infuriating company. People like him with an incredibly out of touch vision of what reality is.

Not being rude is part of being civil, which goes a long way towards possibly solving an issue instead of inflaming it and making it worse. You are clearly of that newer generation that thinks their opinion is 'fact', and by declaring it so, that must make it true. Number 3's assessment of the situation tells you a lot about what has been going on inside GM, which is an extremely valuable insight. He was with them for a long time.

Originally Posted by Silverado57

Has anyone mentioned the role Unions play in the cost of labor and goods produced?
Asking for a friend...

Yes, I did mention it. It's not just the cost of labor, a huge chunk of the cost of doing business for GM is the retirements they have to pay for; it's in the billions. Retirements are part of the union contracts. That's an expense that overseas labor generally doesn't have to carry. Those foreign companies that are building cars here, do have to consider those expenses, and they also have to deal with the regulations and legal expenses doing business here brings. However since their management is based on the foreign cultures they came from, their attitudes and behaviors are different. They have a different outlook on what to do and how to do it.

There's a lot more to this whole situation than can be discussed in a medium like this, but some of it deals with attitudes and behavior of the working class, but especially the attitudes and behavior of the ruling class; the management.

Doing business in America doesn't automatically mean you're at a disadvantage, but you have to be aware of the differences between American culture, both as customers and workers, compared to what you'll see in other countries; especially the labor market countries like China, Mexico and India. China and India have the advantage of economy of scale; they have more workers available than we have people. China has a population of 1.5 billion, India has reached 1 billion. Even though Mexico doesn't have a large population like those other two countries, Mexico has the advantage of location. The logistics of producing in Mexico is better than either China or India.

Then you have culture. All 3 of those countries populations and cultures don't have the same expectations that ours does. In China or India, if you don't like the working conditions, there are 100 million people outside who will gladly take your place. We don't have that issue here. In the U.S., we have the cultural mentality of being entitled and demanding; give me what I want or I'll sue. Give me what I want or I'll attack; agree with me or I'll attack. It's completely different than what you see elsewhere. Our 'poor' are not at all like the poor in other countries. Chinese poor are POOR, and 75% of that 1.5 billion population are poor. That's a massive labor pool that will pretty much do just about anything to keep from starving to death. "I'm inside out of the weather, I have a bowl of rice and I get paid? I'll take it!" We don't have that here.

There's so much more to this story than can be talked about in here, otherwise it would start looking like a novel. Just because people on a forum aren't running the companies being discussed, doesn't mean they are stupid, inexperienced and don't have valid ideas. It's like someone in a bad relationship; everyone around them can see it, but the person in it can't see it clearly. For us, GM is that relationship right now.

The problems American manufacturing have are a combination of management attitude, worker skill and attitude, and government attitude and behavior. All of that started a long time ago; it's been going on for decades. It's all about people; their expectations, perceptions, attitudes and behavior. You see it in here, you see it in politics, you see it in business, you see it in the schools, you see it in society. Bad attitudes bring bad results; good attitudes bring better results. Good attitudes combined with confidence and vision can bring great results, but in every case, good attitudes always have to deal with those with bad attitudes. It's a constant drag on progress, society, and quality of life. Even simple conversation is compromised by bad attitudes.

America as a nation can do what no nation before it ever has, did or could... as long as we're united. We can only be conquered when we're divided. We can be conquered politically, industrially, commercially, economically if we can be divided as a society and culture. It begins with attitude, which leads to behavior. Everything else is the result of those two things.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by fastball

Something I think NEVER gets discussed, or when it does it's always "oooh corporations are evil they must be taxed and heavily" is why our government doesn't change or adapt tax laws to make it far more lucrative for a company to make everything in America even while paying Americans a solid $20.00/hr. Don't fight corporations, embrace them. Make it so companies make far more money producing every single component in that television here in America while paying Americans $20.00/hr AND still sell that 60" LED TV for $1500.00 AND the corporation makes FAR more profits in doing so than if they produced it anywhere else in the world.

I would agree that a tax break for those that do would do that would be fantastic, instead of handing out massive tax breaks to all corporations (which BTW, does what exactly? If they have demand for their products, they wait for a tax break to meet that demand? or they just add it to the coffers and sit on it? I personally wouldn't hire someone to sit around and do nothing just because i received a tax cut, and i wouldn't wait for government hand out to go and hire someone to meet demand for my widgets). How about tying tax breaks to the hiring of full-time, well-paying jobs in America?

Part of the issue is with our tax codes is they are so convoluted that large corporations can use the thousands of loopholes to pay next to nothing in taxes, which seems wrong to the regular middle class folks paying 15% to 20% or more in effective tax rates on their personal income.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Doc

Number 3's assessment of the situation tells you a lot about what has been going on inside GM, which is an extremely valuable insight. He was with them for a long time.

My point EXACTLY!!!!!

They had to BEG our government for funds to simply keep the lights on. WTF is that? Why should I respect or listen to anyone who contributes to that mess????? Tell me!! I want you to explain why someone - ANYONE - involved with a company that goes bankrupt should be listened to. Do you have any good goddamned reason?

ANYONE who has been with GM for a long time should be on the unemployment line.

I really felt at that time that Congress and President Bush should have given GM the big middle finger. They made their bed, they can sleep in it. You want to be bailed out? Everyone working there right now is gone. Fired. No severance, no golden parachutes, not even a coffee cup. You're all fired and we will rebuild the company from the ground up with new, fresh minds and ideas that don't have the stench of 40 years of complete failure.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by Silverado57

Has anyone mentioned the role Unions play in the cost of labor and goods produced?
Asking for a friend...

I've never been part of a union, but I don't discount the role they have played in changing things for the better in this country, like say child labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, overtime pay, safer working conditions etc. There was a time where people were outright murdered by hired guns in this country for going on strike, so with the good, sometimes we deal with the bad I suppose.

I'm no Union expert, I'm sure there are good ones and bad ones. I'm quite sure that some of the "Union Haters" never peek behind the curtains of say, Police Unions, only the ones they deem to be ruining the country.

I worked for Coors, in a warehouse for a few months maybe almost a year after I got out of the Navy (this was 18 years ago), and I'll never forget; att one point, the shift manager would not allow us to take any breaks, not even a lunch break. When I mentioned to him that such policy is illegal, he said and I quote:
"there are 10 people outside the fence waiting for your job". You think that atmosphere isn't ripe for unionization?

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by fastball

My point EXACTLY!!!!!

They had to BEG our government for funds to simply keep the lights on. WTF is that? Why should I respect or listen to anyone who contributes to that mess????? Tell me!! I want you to explain why someone - ANYONE - involved with a company that goes bankrupt should be listened to. Do you have any good goddamned reason?

ANYONE who has been with GM for a long time should be on the unemployment line.

I really felt at that time that Congress and President Bush should have given GM the big middle finger. They made their bed, they can sleep in it. You want to be bailed out? Everyone working there right now is gone. Fired. No severance, no golden parachutes, not even a coffee cup. You're all fired and we will rebuild the company from the ground up with new, fresh minds and ideas that don't have the stench of 40 years of complete failure.

The government at that time was trying to save us from another Great Depression. So, IDK, I think it was the right thing to do at that time.

[hotlap]

I have family that retired from the UAW and the federal government. I'll admit that I've have envied their overall compensation, benefits and pensions. Does not exist on the same scale for those slugging it out in private industry.

https://www.heritage.org/testimony/a...n-compensation

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by dohvb1

So someone who has had his companies declare bankruptcy 6 times probably should not be listened to at all, let alone making economic policies correct?

And a community organizer should be listened to? Lead from behind (because I don't understand) was better?

[Doc]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

I would agree that a tax break for those that do would do that would be fantastic, instead of handing out massive tax breaks to all corporations (which BTW, does what exactly? If they have demand for their products, they wait for a tax break to meet that demand? or they just add it to the coffers and sit on it? I personally wouldn't hire someone to sit around and do nothing just because i received a tax cut, and i wouldn't wait for government hand out to go and hire someone to meet demand for my widgets). How about tying tax breaks to the hiring of full-time, well-paying jobs in America?

Part of the issue is with our tax codes is they are so convoluted that large corporations can use the thousands of loopholes to pay next to nothing in taxes, which seems wrong to the regular middle class folks paying 15% to 20% or more in effective tax rates on their personal income.

As I stated in my previous post, it's about attitudes and behaviors. Attitudes and behaviors have to change otherwise nothing else will.

American management's mentality is "Profit, profit, profit". That justifies doing anything to gain that, which spawns some pretty vile practices, including terminating employees JUST before they reach retirement so you don't have to pay them their retirement. Got an entire loyal crew at one location that are getting close to retirement? Close that location, let them all go and let your legal department craft a carefully worded statement to help you avoid being sued. There's a lot of slime being generated by American management and they've been doing that for decades, which is what brought about the unions and government regulations in the first place. Then decades later, the unions and government became the very thing they were supposed to prevent. Now it's a joint effort. (You can interpret that any way you like).

A very large part of the problem is our government's approach to taxation in the first place. I personally believe much of our problems could be greatly relieved by getting rid of all taxes in the first place, and replacing them with a simple, single federal sales tax. You only pay tax when you buy something. That's fair, it applies to everyone no matter what you buy, and there aren't any loopholes. No need for filing taxes or hiring an army of lawyers and accountants to deal with it. Everyone gets what they earn and gets to use it first, before government gets their hands on it. For business, the expenses of dealing with taxes goes away, which means they can use that money for their business. For employees, can you imagine what would happen to the economy if the "withholding" being taken out of your paycheck is suddenly not taken out? What would people do with that money? They'd spend it. That would rev up the economy quite nicely, and since they're buying things, the government would get their share from the sales tax. Everybody wins.

Our 'representatives' don't like that idea because they want the freedom to be able to take as much as they can, as fast as they can, and spend as much as they want without limitation. That's why we're trillions in debt without anything to really show for it. Our country is actually still in great shape overall, we just need people with the right attitude and behavior to be in charge of things. The entire collective group we have now, are not those people.

Originally Posted by fastball

My point EXACTLY!!!!!

They had to BEG our government for funds to simply keep the lights on. WTF is that? Why should I respect or listen to anyone who contributes to that mess????? Tell me!! I want you to explain why someone - ANYONE - involved with a company that goes bankrupt should be listened to. Do you have any good goddamned reason?

ANYONE who has been with GM for a long time should be on the unemployment line.

I really felt at that time that Congress and President Bush should have given GM the big middle finger. They made their bed, they can sleep in it. You want to be bailed out? Everyone working there right now is gone. Fired. No severance, no golden parachutes, not even a coffee cup. You're all fired and we will rebuild the company from the ground up with new, fresh minds and ideas that don't have the stench of 40 years of complete failure.

Well it's easy to be cavalier about tens of thousands of people's lives being thrown under the bus when you're not one of them, but the situation is a bit more involved than that. It's not only GM, but it's all those industries (and employees) that support what they do who are also affected. That's a LOT of people; people in a lot of states who don't want to lose their jobs.

When a large corporation goes down, that effects a lot of people. When a very large corporation goes down, that ripples throughout the economy. Politicians from all the states that are affected, don't want to just sit there and watch it happen. They want to try and do something, but it's that "something" that's critical. Do they know what to do? Do they know why the situation exists as it does now? What's the plan to fix it so it doesn't happen again? Our politicians are the worst money managers in the history of the planet, which is why their 'solutions' don't solve the causes that produced the effect. Their solution to their money problems is to take more or make more; raise taxes, print more money, raise the "debt ceiling". Only government can do that; businesses don't have that option. Throwing money at it is NOT the solution. You need to look at the practices; the attitudes and behaviors from all sectors that brought about the problem in the first place. Change that first, or they'll just do the same thing they've been doing and be back in the same position when they run out of the money you threw at them.

What we really need is an Employment Bill of Rights that outlines what can and can't be done with regards to management and workers. It needs to be aligned and fit within the existing Constitution and Bill of Rights, and needs very careful consideration as to what it's putting forth, why, and what the results are expected to be as a consequence. We don't want to become a dictatorship or a communist/socialist system. The track record for those systems is disastrous.

The thing is, the problems are multi-layered across all segments of our society, so there's no magic bullet. There's no single, quick-fix. Fixing it requires a comprehensive examination, understanding and balancing of multi-layers in order to get the overall machine running smoothly again. It's a lot like a car engine. The performance of the engine isn't based on one component; it's based on all of them together, and how the driver uses it. That's our country and society in a nutshell.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by dohvb1

So someone who has had his companies declare bankruptcy 6 times probably should not be listened to at all, let alone making economic policies correct?

Next Political comment like this gets the thread closed again.