C7 Front Bumper Leak

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The point is that most Corvette buyers rank MPG an average of 165 places lower than Horsepower on their list of desired features.

I get that but the poster above showed 430 HP for the 6.2 LT1. So that's why I said there better be a reasonable MPG bump. Not to mention the LT4 doesn't come close to LS9 power. That is if these numbers are anywhere near reality.

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So the LT1 puts out same power as LS3 and the LT4 barely edges out the LSA but not even close to tr LS9?

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I get that but the poster above showed 430 HP for the 6.2 LT1. So that's why I said there better be a reasonable MPG bump. Not to mention the LT4 doesn't come close to LS9 power. That is if these numbers are anywhere near reality.

Fuel economy is supposed to be improved and you can rest assured GM is not showing their entire hand. Those engines with "find" more factory power in time. Keep in mind that the C7 and Gen 6 Camaro are going to be substantially lighter cars than what we currently have so just that in and of itself with improve performance and fuel economy.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Apex Chase

... Keep in mind that the C7 and Gen 6 Camaro are going to be substantially lighter cars than what we currently have so just that in and of itself with improve performance and fuel economy.

BINGO. I'll take that over more power that really isn't needed in a platform like Alpha.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Apex Chase

Fuel economy is supposed to be improved and you can rest assured GM is not showing their entire hand. Those engines with "find" more factory power in time. Keep in mind that the C7 and Gen 6 Camaro are going to be substantially lighter cars than what we currently have so just that in and of itself with improve performance and fuel economy.

What are we all sacrificing for this weight savings?

Safety?
Money?
Performance?
Size?
All of the above?

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

What are we all sacrificing for this weight savings?

Safety?
Money?
Performance?
Size?
All of the above?

The 6th gen is going to be smaller than the 5th but beyond that I would say "none of the above". Less weight does not equal sacrifice. It means better engineering and greater use of light weight materials. All of this is a good stuff.

[Captain Awesome]

If lighter weight materials were the magic bullet, why aren't all cars made from them already by now? There must be a logical reason why they are not currently used... Hmmmmm. I wonder why they were not used previously.

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

If lighter weight materials were the magic bullet, why aren't all cars made from them already by now? There must be a logical reason why they are not currently used... Hmmmmm. I wonder why they were not used previously.

Like with any technology it is expensive early on but it's time is coming. As time goes by the economy of scale begins to kick in and as new techniques and procedures are developed costs are further reduced. Suddenly technology that was once reserved for only high end exotics begins to trickle down to more mainstream cars. Magnetic Ride Control and independent rear suspension are both perfect and particularly relevant examples. Just look at how extensively carbon fiber is used not only in cars but in all kinds of stuff these days. My cell phone case is carbon fiber. 25 years ago the only people that could afford to use that stuff was the Department of Defense and NASA.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

If lighter weight materials were the magic bullet, why aren't all cars made from them already by now? There must be a logical reason why they are not currently used... Hmmmmm. I wonder why they were not used previously.

When most modern midsize 4 door family cars are coming in anywhere from 3,100 to 3,500 lbs....you know the Camaro is fat when even the V6 weighs in at 3,750 lbs.

The ATS begins at just under 3,400 lbs, and I'm sure its perfectly safe, it definitely performs fantastic, and the size is fine. Only sacrifice I see might be cost but as Apex says that will come down in time....in fact cost should not be a factor as far as the Alpha platform is concerned. Now when they begin using more light weight material like high tensile strength steel than ever before, then of course costs will increase initially.

Even with a larger, stronger drive train to handle the power, I expect the next gen SS to be somewhere in the 3,500 to 3,600 lb range.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Apex Chase

Like with any technology it is expensive early on but it's time is coming. As time goes by the economy of scale begins to kick in and as new techniques and procedures are developed costs are further reduced. Suddenly technology that was once reserved for only high end exotics begins to trickle down to more mainstream cars. Magnetic Ride Control and independent rear suspension are both perfect and particularly relevant examples. Just look at how extensively carbon fiber is used not only in cars but in all kinds of stuff these days. My cell phone case is carbon fiber. 25 years ago the only people that could afford to use that stuff was the Department of Defense and NASA.

I beg to differ. IRS has been around for as long as there have been suspensions, and really isn't an advanced idea, and has not been associated with high end exotics.

Carbon fiber has been around in consumer products (mainly sporting goods) for 25 years. It is not cheap because it trickled down. It's cheap because we mostly stopped making it and buy it from China now. A large percentage of products using it are not doing it to save weight or add strength, it is used because it looks cool. Tyoically the fiber is just a single layer on top of a cheap substrate that gives it a cosmetic appearance.

Sadly, we are at the mercy of what fiber they make overseas, and there is currently a massive shortage of certain weave styles, which means we can't make certain products, and have not been able to make them for over 6 months.

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

I beg to differ.

You are entitled to your opinion but this is turning into argument for the sake of argument. Technology becomes cheaper as it advances and is more widely adopted. Use whatever example and time frame you like. The GM bean counters know who their customers are and how much they can afford to spend producing their bread and butter cars. Point is, the current push in the engineering departments at the OEMs is weight reduction and there is a lot of cool work being done in that effort. Whether their work results in some unacceptable sacrifice, again, is something you will have to form an opinion about when the car is released. But as a performance enthusiast I am very excited to see the factory cars shedding weight. Especially after seeing what they have done with the Cadillac ATS (same chassis as the 6th gen Camaro) and hearing some of the details of the C7 Corvette.

[Captain Awesome]

I'm not against shedding weight, as the 5th generation is heavier than it should be, and if it had been a ground up coupe design it would have been lighter. I take issue with the way they are taking generic platforms and making them multi purpose which compromises weight and packaging and instead of designing weight efficient platforms they are taking the approach of simply replacing materials with costly substitutes and continuing with the "one size fits all" platform approach.

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

I'm not against shedding weight, as the 5th generation is heavier than it should be, and if it had been a ground up coupe design it would have been lighter. I take issue with the way they are taking generic platforms and making them multi purpose which compromises weight and packaging and instead of designing weight efficient platforms they are taking the approach of simply replacing materials with costly substitutes and continuing with the "one size fits all" platform approach.

Chassis development is very costly and it reduces costs and therefore retail pricing by putting more than one model on a chassis. It is not a case of forcing a square peg in a round hole. The new Alpha platform was designed specifically to be an all new smaller, lighter, and less costly RWD chassis to replace the current Zeta chassis. If you read some of the reviews on the ATS you will see over and over again how great the chassis is. Very solid and stiff. Exactly what you want in a chassis. The great thing is that it is a peak into the future for Camaro enthusiasts. The discussion of the use of lighter weight materials is related to the body panels and other build components.