Don't know if I can buy a government car?

[PQ]

Dragoneye, I sure hope you're right. It sounds like YOU hope you're right.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by irpq11

Dragoneye, I sure hope you're right. It sounds like YOU hope you're right.

We all hope that our impression, opinions, and hypothesis are right -- the nature of the game is that sometimes...we wrong and we lose. Luckily for me...I'm usually right. I don't open my mouth unless I'm confident.

But I think we all hope I'm right, regardless.


EDIT: I just realized how arrogant that sounded...I didn't mean for it to come off that way at all! Sorry!

[dkb]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

We all hope that our impression, opinions, and hypothesis are right -- the nature of the game is that sometimes...we wrong and we lose. Luckily for me...I'm usually right. I don't open my mouth unless I'm confident.

But I think we all hope I'm right, regardless.


EDIT: I just realized how arrogant that sounded...I didn't mean for it to come off that way at all! Sorry!

Dragoneye ... I'm not sure what you think you're right about?

The government IS working to gain effective control of Chrysler and GM. They ARE firing the CEOS ... reorganizing their boards ... directing them to sell themselves to foreign companies ... "suggesting" what kind of cars they should be building ... passing judgment on their restructuring plans ... preventing them from moving into bankruptcy ... providing the unions with (in the case of Chrysler) majority ownership ... providing the actual debt holders with take it or leave it deals .... etc, etc.

You seem to acknowledge a lot of these things but just HOPE that none of it comes to pass or that if it does that the government will "of course" back out of it all once things are in better shape.

I'm not sure what in your life experience would lead you to believe that the government will do the right, smart, efficient, logical thing? Your confidence in the government against all available historical evidence to the contrary is inexplicable ...

[manimsoblack]

I say it'll be somewhere in between the ideally logical outcome dragoneye has painted and the "charley foxtrot" of stupid dkb sees.

[BowtieGuy]

Originally Posted by Fireball

Now that Obama has stepped into GM to infiltrate the company with his cronies, are we to expect the government will turn things around?

I can't believe the mods have not caught this yet.

The fear in this thread is palpable. This isn't the first time this has happened. If anybody is going to use "historical" evidence, they may want to think about what happened to Chrysler in the 70's. Or how the loans were paid back, with interest, ahead of schedule.

Dragon, thank you for keeping your head on your shoulders.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

We all hope that our impression, opinions, and hypothesis are right -- the nature of the game is that sometimes...we wrong and we lose. Luckily for me...I'm usually right. I don't open my mouth unless I'm confident.

But I think we all hope I'm right, regardless.


EDIT: I just realized how arrogant that sounded...I didn't mean for it to come off that way at all! Sorry!

It's cool bro. If you're a fellow Bills fan then you should be arrogant.

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Humans are greedy, until that changes, we need Government.

And what the hell is government, a charity? The greed coming from government completely eclipses any greed from corporate America. You don't see private companies setting arbitrarily low speed limits and shortening yellow lights in an unsafe manner just for a revenue grab do you?

[PQ]

Originally Posted by stovt001

And what the hell is government, a charity? The greed coming from government completely eclipses any greed from corporate America. You don't see private companies setting arbitrarily low speed limits and shortening yellow lights in an unsafe manner just for a revenue grab do you?

Damn, that's a good idea.


Look, if the Gov. makes a Z28, I'm buying it. We just have to wait and see what happens. Problem is, when the bad happens it's too late.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The government wouldn't take any bit of the profit, with exception of the stock value when they sell it.


I've read in multiple places the number for that was more like 39%...and again, it's all a temporary discussion. They are seeking to put stock in place of cash, because they don't have any...eventually, that stock will have to turn into cash; It's being used to fund the VEBA...and you can't buy health insurance with stock...


You could argue that point, yes...but then explain to me why they made such a hassle about loaning the money in the first place...it's just "chump change", right? They are politicking. And if they make money off the stock, which they WILL, then the administration can turn to the taxpayers and say "look what we did for you guys"....it is about power, yes...but there is no benefit power-wise for them to hold a majority stake in GM...they don't know wtf they're doing, and they know it. Government regulation of vehicles will stay limited to CAFE and friends, not the boardroom of General Motors. You surely agree that the country would be in an uproar if there was a blatant "nationalization" of such a large corporation. Without getting into it, the nation would go from blue to red overnight........


**IF** they run it at all...again -- this is what I meant when I said that about "fear". Perhaps it was the wrong word; but the point remains -- there's a group of folks already assuming that the government will own GM!! Hell, there's been two misguided people that've already abandoned Camaro because of it!!!

#1; this is still a PROPOSAL. The gov't has not agreed to take the stock, yet -- and they very well may NOT. That would be an added force to send the company into that "surgical" bankruptcy, which - I'll admit, looks mildly appealing.

#2; The treasury...the President, GM PR, and the CEO himself have all said, repeatedly, that the government has "no intentions of controlling or running General Motors Corporation." The question then becomes do you believe them...all of them...or not? If not...fine. But be advised that you have no evidence to the contrary until something 'happens'.




I agree with the first half -- with one addition, there MUST be a happy medium. We were in it for the better half of the last century...we must find that again, as over-regulation can cripple the market.

I disagree with your last statement. Private business is all about making money, and serving their stakeholders...people can be fired in private business for failing to do that, so they are always hard at work with fulfilling that criteria, with the occasional exception. Whereas gov't officials are elected, for the most part, willy-nilly. Very few actually know what they're doing, and getting a goal completed satisfactorily is a rare occasion due to the nature of beaurocracy. They cannot be fired without going through a long and dragged out process, and they answer to their most valuble ($$$) supporters, not the public at large. The exception to this rule is rare, but welcome.

Rules are set in place by the gov't. Yes...but of the two entities, which is more likely to break the rules? the guy who has to follow them, or the guy who made them?

Those are the characters of the two entities as I have observed them for the past twenty years or more if you include outsider's input I have gathered. Would you disagree with the above assesment? If so...why? But if not -- who would you really rather trust? They guy you can fire if he screws up, or the guy who can't get anything done to begin with?

I should have written "good government" over private business, something our country hasn't experienced very often in its past. The problem I see with the profit motive (greed), and big business is the lack of transparency. They cook the books and everything looks hunky-dory until the problems are so big they threaten the entire system. This is pretty obvious today and seems to be a fairly regular feature of our system. Government mostly suck's unless its compared to these huge Corporations running amok under the guise of the free market. Better the Devil you know than the Devil you don't.

[dkb]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

I should have written "good government" over private business, something our country hasn't experienced very often in its past. The problem I see with the profit motive (greed), and big business is the lack of transparency. They cook the books and everything looks hunky-dory until the problems are so big they threaten the entire system. This is pretty obvious today and seems to be a fairly regular feature of our system. Government mostly suck's unless its compared to these huge Corporations running amok under the guise of the free market. Better the Devil you know than the Devil you don't.

DR ... the graft and waste and sheer incompetence of government so outstrips what any private businesses are capable of most people don't even see it. It's so big you can't get back far enough away to put it in perspective.

The same people who are right now telling Chrysler and GM how to NOT lose billions are in the very next room losing trillions.

All the problems with these big corporations can be traced back directly to government regulations and interventions.

-the government encouraged banks to make more home loans to low income folks through Fannie and Freddie ... next step disaster
-the government wants gas prices high to force us all into small cars ... next step auto company collapse
-the government forces ethanol use ... next step food price increases, famine and rioting in the third world

Everywhere the market isn't working you'll find the heavy hand of politicians in the background trying to force us all into behavior that they prefer.

Government Motors will not be building a muscle car with 400 hp for much longer ... that's what we want to drive but its not what the government wants us to drive ....

[MrIcky]

OK, I realize there is a lot of anger out there right now. But you all need to realize a few basic things about politicians.

First off, every politician I've ever met (and I've met a lot in my job) STARTS with the idea that they are going to make the America (or the world) a better place. Whether that is by saving baby seals or preparing America for the Communist scourge. This is a big reason why so much in Gov't gets backassward. You are likely to have people on this steering committee who are far more concerned about baby seals or Hugo Chavez then they are about GM. In this case, those concerns coincide. Most politicians are individually pretty competent (even though their worldview differs so much), but then you put them on these committees and you end up with garbage.

DKB pointed out:

"-the government encouraged banks to make more home loans to low income folks through Fannie and Freddie ... next step disaster
-the government wants gas prices high to force us all into small cars ... next step auto company collapse"


Point 1 is clearly true, and I am a huge critic of Barney Frank and Freddie Mac. However it wasn't done out of evil. He honestly thought he was trying to make America better.

Point 2 is sort of true in that some members of congress want that to happen- however, part 2 of that sentence isn't clearly answered yet. In fact if the first half happens (artificially inflating gas prices) Ford's CEO has said that would help them as a company. If congress does push GM to make more fuel efficient vehicles through their interjection, then it could make GM wildly profitable.

It is absolutely clear that you have politicians who see their role in history as "saving the planet". It is also clear that those politicians have a strong voice in congress and the political will to make some changes. It has been proven over and over that a true believer will allow their ideology to trump best business practices (Barney Frank and Freddie Mac as an example - I can give examples of the Right Wing making bad business decisions for nearly paranoid Cold War beliefs).

I honestly don't think Government intervention would destroy GM. It would be a step toward a more European-like economy. I'd prefer not to have a European economy, it's got more issues than a traditional American economy but it's not the end of the world. I think the real short term issue would be aesthetic: would I rather look at Volts or V8 Camaros? I think I know the answer of people on this board. And I don't think V8 Camaros would necessarily go away, but they'd be a luxury item that costs more. I think the people on this board may be surprised at the answer if you did a high quality poll of 'normal' people (i.e. not Car Nutz).

[radz28]

Originally Posted by dkb

DR ... the graft and waste and sheer incompetence of government so outstrips what any private businesses are capable of most people don't even see it. It's so big you can't get back far enough away to put it in perspective.

The same people who are right now telling Chrysler and GM how to NOT lose billions are in the very next room losing trillions.

All the problems with these big corporations can be traced back directly to government regulations and interventions.

-the government encouraged banks to make more home loans to low income folks through Fannie and Freddie ... next step disaster
-the government wants gas prices high to force us all into small cars ... next step auto company collapse
-the government forces ethanol use ... next step food price increases, famine and rioting in the third world

Everywhere the market isn't working you'll find the heavy hand of politicians in the background trying to force us all into behavior that they prefer.

Government Motors will not be building a muscle car with 400 hp for much longer ... that's what we want to drive but its not what the government wants us to drive ....

Originally Posted by MrIcky

OK, I realize there is a lot of anger out there right now. But you all need to realize a few basic things about politicians.

First off, every politician I've ever met (and I've met a lot in my job) STARTS with the idea that they are going to make the America (or the world) a better place. Whether that is by saving baby seals or preparing America for the Communist scourge. This is a big reason why so much in Gov't gets backassward. You are likely to have people on this steering committee who are far more concerned about baby seals or Hugo Chavez then they are about GM. In this case, those concerns coincide. Most politicians are individually pretty competent (even though their worldview differs so much), but then you put them on these committees and you end up with garbage.

DKB pointed out:

"-the government encouraged banks to make more home loans to low income folks through Fannie and Freddie ... next step disaster
-the government wants gas prices high to force us all into small cars ... next step auto company collapse"


Point 1 is clearly true, and I am a huge critic of Barney Frank and Freddie Mac. However it wasn't done out of evil. He honestly thought he was trying to make America better.

Point 2 is sort of true in that some members of congress want that to happen- however, part 2 of that sentence isn't clearly answered yet. In fact if the first half happens (artificially inflating gas prices) Ford's CEO has said that would help them as a company. If congress does push GM to make more fuel efficient vehicles through their interjection, then it could make GM wildly profitable.

It is absolutely clear that you have politicians who see their role in history as "saving the planet". It is also clear that those politicians have a strong voice in congress and the political will to make some changes. It has been proven over and over that a true believer will allow their ideology to trump best business practices (Barney Frank and Freddie Mac as an example - I can give examples of the Right Wing making bad business decisions for nearly paranoid Cold War beliefs).

I honestly don't think Government intervention would destroy GM. It would be a step toward a more European-like economy. I'd prefer not to have a European economy, it's got more issues than a traditional American economy but it's not the end of the world. I think the real short term issue would be aesthetic: would I rather look at Volts or V8 Camaros? I think I know the answer of people on this board. And I don't think V8 Camaros would necessarily go away, but they'd be a luxury item that costs more. I think the people on this board may be surprised at the answer if you did a high quality poll of 'normal' people (i.e. not Car Nutz).

I'm a youngster, politically, and have to say that I'm learning a lot from this thread. I'm glad it hasn't had to be closed yet. I guess it's a good thing there is more than one party so there's a chance a good balance can be struck. I'm no enviornmentalist, but can appreciate our planet. I think it's a good thing there's more than one side.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by dkb

DR ... the graft and waste and sheer incompetence of government so outstrips what any private businesses are capable of most people don't even see it. It's so big you can't get back far enough away to put it in perspective.

The same people who are right now telling Chrysler and GM how to NOT lose billions are in the very next room losing trillions.

All the problems with these big corporations can be traced back directly to government regulations and interventions.

-the government encouraged banks to make more home loans to low income folks through Fannie and Freddie ... next step disaster
-the government wants gas prices high to force us all into small cars ... next step auto company collapse
-the government forces ethanol use ... next step food price increases, famine and rioting in the third world

Everywhere the market isn't working you'll find the heavy hand of politicians in the background trying to force us all into behavior that they prefer.

Government Motors will not be building a muscle car with 400 hp for much longer ... that's what we want to drive but its not what the government wants us to drive ....

I'm not going to agree or disagree with what you've written, but I will say we have a voice within our government, however small. We can have a bigger voice and more power if any or all of us become more informed and involved. Truthfully, we are the government, but most of us have given up or never tried to assert ourselves. We give our power over to whomever runs the best/most Ad's during election season and then hope for the best. Learn who your representatives are, you might be surprized by what you find. One of mine was kind of a nerd in High School and a few of my friends remember him getting picked on a lot. Now he's a powerful congressman with an axe to grind. ,

[Captain Awesome]

I'm going to disagree on one point. Where it has been stated that politicians start out wanting to "help" people like making affordable housing and such, I think with many of them it's their way of "helping" themselves get elected/re-elected.

In my opinion, selfishness and greed for power makes them "generous" to their constituents with other people's money in return for their votes...