Update: Chrysler Buisness plan reveals upcoming Challenger Refresh for 2011

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Zeus

I'd rather they build a new platform, drop it down to 3500lbs, drop the SRT engine in the R/T and put out a 550hp 7.0L for the new SRT.

Competition is a grand thing, but I think three American ponycars, one Korean wannabe that is likely going to get very good over the next few years, and a Nissan coupe duo that that flirts with the segment (370Z/G37) is probably pushing it. Without doubt, the upcoming Toyota/Subie coupes are going to nibble at this same market segment as well even if they aren't direct competition, which means that a rwd coupe segment that was wide open in 2005 is becoming increasingly crowded despite a down market.

Even though the Nissan/Infiniti and Subaru/Toyota offerings aren't direct competitors that makes for a lot of folks fighting for at least a nibble of the same pie. Somebody needs to have the foresight to throw a twist into the mix, and since the Challenger really pushes the size/weight bounds of the ponycar segment to their limit anyway....not to mention the relatively modest sales that car has seen thus far....I think the Pentastar boys would be well advised to consider something a bit different for this car.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by syr74

Competition is a grand thing, but I think three American ponycars, one Korean wannabe that is likely going to get very good over the next few years, and a Nissan coupe duo that that flirts with the segment (370Z/G37) is probably pushing it. Without doubt, the upcoming Toyota/Subie coupes are going to nibble at this same market segment as well even if they aren't direct competition, which means that a rwd coupe segment that was wide open in 2005 is becoming increasingly crowded despite a down market.

Even though the Nissan/Infiniti and Subaru/Toyota offerings aren't direct competitors that makes for a lot of folks fighting for at least a nibble of the same pie. Somebody needs to have the foresight to throw a twist into the mix, and since the Challenger really pushes the size/weight bounds of the ponycar segment to their limit anyway....not to mention the relatively modest sales that car has seen thus far....I think the Pentastar boys would be well advised to consider something a bit different for this car.

Ok.

So lets think about this, the Challenger SRT as it is, is a 40k car. For them to adjust the platform, give it a world class interior and carry out the rest of the things necessary to make it the car your talking about there would be a big price increase.

Your looking at a Sporty/GT/Coupe which would likely start in the mid 50's and your REALLY starting to compete with the wrong crowd. No one is going to buy a Challenger over an M3/C63AMG/ISF/CaymanS.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Zeus

So lets think about this, the Challenger SRT as it is, is a 40k car. For them to adjust the platform, give it a world class interior and carry out the rest of the things necessary to make it the car your talking about there would be a big price increase.

Not really. I can see why it might seem this way at first glance, but having worked in the business for a time myself I can say without reservation that the current production scheme for the Challenger has to be draining Chrysler of a small fortune every month it runs given the relatively modest sales volume the car generates, the notable breadth of models offered, and the relatively modest pricing of two of those models. A strict, by the numbers businessman like Alan Mulally would probably have a stoke if he saw the costs that line has to be running on. I'm not saying that the line necessarily loses money, but it isn't well conceived and can in no way be turning the kind of profit that it should.....it certainly isn't contributing to the LX bottom line or image in the manner that it could or should.

Simplifying the production line and moving the price of the car just a bit due north would count for a lot here. Of, course we could still see the benefits of cost sharing on a meaningful scale here, if in a more practical manner. For example, Challenger could adopt a much better, Taurus SHO or LaCrosse level interior or better that could share a lot of components with the 300 while remaining individual enough to present a luxury-performance image (frankly, a luxury performance image suits the 300 anyway) Heck, for that matter a better equipped Challenger with a more upscale interior gives the perfect excuse to crank out a 300 coupe on the same line.

As for the rest of the car, I'll stand by my assertion that one basic flavor is good enough. Take the upcoming 6.4L ST8, back it with the excellent PDK transmissions Porsche uses (may as well offer that sweet piece in the 300 too for that matter), and refine the suspension a bit more throwing in some magnetically adjustable shocks. In that sole, upmarket trim level my money says that each unit produced cost no more than the current SRT8 model does on a per unit basis and would very likely see a per unit, production cost reduction.

Originally Posted by Zeus

Your looking at a Sporty/GT/Coupe which would likely start in the mid 50's and your REALLY starting to compete with the wrong crowd. No one is going to buy a Challenger over an M3/C63AMG/ISF/CaymanS.

Again, not really, There is no reason such a car couldn't be made to start about where the GT500/Corvette do and be quite profitable for it. In that price range, a car with a standout interior, refined ride/handling, and a superb drivetrain should do quite nicely.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by syr74

Not really. I can see why it might seem this way at first glance, but having worked in the business for a time myself I can say without reservation that the current production scheme for the Challenger has to be draining Chrysler of a small fortune every month it runs given the relatively modest sales volume the car generates, the notable breadth of models offered, and the relatively modest pricing of two of those models. A strict, by the numbers businessman like Alan Mulally would probably have a stoke if he saw the costs that line has to be running on. I'm not saying that the line necessarily loses money, but it isn't well conceived and can in no way be turning the kind of profit that it should.....it certainly isn't contributing to the LX bottom line or image in the manner that it could or should.

Simplifying the production line and moving the price of the car just a bit due north would count for a lot here. Of, course we could still see the benefits of cost sharing on a meaningful scale here, if in a more practical manner. For example, Challenger could adopt a much better, Taurus SHO or LaCrosse level interior or better that could share a lot of components with the 300 while remaining individual enough to present a luxury-performance image (frankly, a luxury performance image suits the 300 anyway) Heck, for that matter a better equipped Challenger with a more upscale interior gives the perfect excuse to crank out a 300 coupe on the same line.

As for the rest of the car, I'll stand by my assertion that one basic flavor is good enough. Take the upcoming 6.4L ST8, back it with the excellent PDK transmissions Porsche uses (may as well offer that sweet piece in the 300 too for that matter), and refine the suspension a bit more throwing in some magnetically adjustable shocks. In that sole, upmarket trim level my money says that each unit produced cost no more than the current SRT8 model does on a per unit basis and would very likely see a per unit, production cost reduction.



Again, not really, There is no reason such a car couldn't be made to start about where the GT500/Corvette do and be quite profitable for it. In that price range, a car with a standout interior, refined ride/handling, and a superb drivetrain should do quite nicely.

A. The Corvette starts at 58k.... actually above the price I was thinking this new hypothetical Chally would tag.

B. How are they going to get PDK?

C. Sounds nice, don't believe they wouldn't charge less than 50k for it. That sounds like a 55k-70k car coming from a European brand like Fiat.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Zeus

A. The Corvette starts at 58k.... actually above the price I was thinking this new hypothetical Chally would tag.

Corvette actually starts at 48k, and I think such a Chally would do just fine so long as it stays under 50k to start.

Originally Posted by Zeus

B. How are they going to get PDK?

If nothing else, Porsche is always happy to sell their services and even their wares. While it would be a pricey piece I have little doubt that Porsche would be more than pleased to sell Chrysler as many PDK transmissions as the Mopar boys see fit to buy. And while I do think a standard PDK would be the best possible solution, if it did prove too pricey to offer as standard equipment a slick 6-speed manual would work just fine as the standard piece. However, while it is just a guess, I think the numbers would probably work out for a standard PDK.

Originally Posted by Zeus

C. Sounds nice, don't believe they wouldn't charge less than 50k for it. That sounds like a 55k-70k car coming from a European brand like Fiat.

You might have me there.

[meanmike]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Ok.

So lets think about this, the Challenger SRT as it is, is a 40k car. For them to adjust the platform, give it a world class interior and carry out the rest of the things necessary to make it the car your talking about there would be a big price increase.

Your looking at a Sporty/GT/Coupe which would likely start in the mid 50's and your REALLY starting to compete with the wrong crowd. No one is going to buy a Challenger over an M3/C63AMG/ISF/CaymanS.

I would if I the future of the company was'nt at stake. Beside's who cross shop's a BMW and a muscle car?

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by syr74

Corvette actually starts at 48k, and I think such a Chally would do just fine so long as it stays under 50k to start.

Yep, right you are. Went back to check on the price, when you scroll over the link for 'Vette' a car comes up with 58k under it, but upon reading the fine print that was the As Shown version.

If nothing else, Porsche is always happy to sell their services and even their wares. While it would be a pricey piece I have little doubt that Porsche would be more than pleased to sell Chrysler as many PDK transmissions as the Mopar boys see fit to buy. And while I do think a standard PDK would be the best possible solution, if it did prove too pricey to offer as standard equipment a slick 6-speed manual would work just fine as the standard piece. However, while it is just a guess, I think the numbers would probably work out for a standard PDK.

Have you ever bought anything from Porsche? Their soda machines charge 20 bucks a can. That PDK is a 4k option.

You might have me there.

Originally Posted by meanmike

I would if I the future of the company was'nt at stake. Beside's who cross shop's a BMW and a muscle car?

The car he is talking about is less raw edged muscle car and more like an AMG... if they passed 50k-60k in price they'd be eaten by the BMW M3 competition. imo.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Ok.

So lets think about this, the Challenger SRT as it is, is a 40k car. For them to adjust the platform, give it a world class interior and carry out the rest of the things necessary to make it the car your talking about there would be a big price increase.

Your looking at a Sporty/GT/Coupe which would likely start in the mid 50's and your REALLY starting to compete with the wrong crowd. No one is going to buy a Challenger over an M3/C63AMG/ISF/CaymanS.

True. Sorry syr, but nobody is going to buy a "grand touring" challenger for 50-55k when you could get the M3/ISF/C63/CTSV/CaymanS for around the same price, cars that will be better performers, most likely better build quality, and something a dodge will never have: Prestige. Sure, it could be a cool car, but with that price, it would be a definite failure. Just look at the Taurus SHO. Who pays 40k for a Taurus? If people think it's a ripoff for 40k, now add over 10k to that and what do you have?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

True. Sorry syr, but nobody is going to buy a "grand touring" challenger for 50-55k when you could get the M3/ISF/C63/CTSV/CaymanS for around the same price, cars that will be better performers, most likely better build quality, and something a dodge will never have: Prestige. Sure, it could be a cool car, but with that price, it would be a definite failure. Just look at the Taurus SHO. Who pays 40k for a Taurus? If people think it's a ripoff for 40k, now add over 10k to that and what do you have?

Dodge has the first diesel engines, which is the longest-lasting ones on the market right. They are the make of the iconic Charger and the iconic Viper. That seems prestigious to me.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

True. Sorry syr, but nobody is going to buy a "grand touring" challenger for 50-55k when you could get the M3/ISF/C63/CTSV/CaymanS for around the same price, cars that will be better performers, most likely better build quality, and something a dodge will never have: Prestige. Sure, it could be a cool car, but with that price, it would be a definite failure. Just look at the Taurus SHO. Who pays 40k for a Taurus? If people think it's a ripoff for 40k, now add over 10k to that and what do you have?

Actually, I think you might have paid too much attention to Zeus' response to my post and not enough to my post. That 50-55k price you mention was his estimate of what it would cost to produce and sell such a car, not mine. I never said anything about a 55k Challenger, I said that they should price the Chally for Vette/GT500 money which would be roughly mid forties....and since the GT500 was commanding prices above sticker until relatively recently I would argue that people will absolutely pay 45-50k for a Grand Tourer that is good enough to make them actually want to buy the car.

As for the Taurus SHO, while I was a skeptic myself when that car was introduced you might want to revisit your thoughts on what will or wont sell, I know I had to. The Taurus is selling about twice as many units per month as the G8 did in it's best ever sales month, and according to Ford the bulk of that demand is for the highest end offerings like loaded SEL models and the SHO. In other words, Taurus is meeting Ford's expectations and then some and a notable portion of the cars making that happen are priced in that 40k dollar range you surmise wont work.

[Coldpants]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Dodge has the first diesel engines, which is the longest-lasting ones on the market right. They are the make of the iconic Charger and the iconic Viper. That seems prestigious to me.

You cannot drive a Dodge with a monocle, therefore it is not prestigious.

[meanmike]

Originally Posted by syr74

Actually, I think you might have paid too much attention to Zeus' response to my post and not enough to my post. That 50-55k price you mention was his estimate of what it would cost to produce and sell such a car, not mine. I never said anything about a 55k Challenger, I said that they should price the Chally for Vette/GT500 money which would be roughly mid forties....and since the GT500 was commanding prices above sticker until relatively recently I would argue that people will absolutely pay 45-50k for a Grand Tourer that is good enough to make them actually want to buy the car.

As for the Taurus SHO, while I was a skeptic myself when that car was introduced you might want to revisit your thoughts on what will or wont sell, I know I had to. The Taurus is selling about twice as many units per month as the G8 did in it's best ever sales month, and according to Ford the bulk of that demand is for the highest end offerings like loaded SEL models and the SHO. In other words, Taurus is meeting Ford's expectations and then some and a notable portion of the cars making that happen are priced in that 40k dollar range you surmise wont work.

That would mean they sell between 4000 to 6000 a month. I would say that's pretty good.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Coldpants

You cannot drive a Dodge with a monocle, therefore it is not prestigious.

lololololololololololol

[KoTToN]

lol, yea those ol 426 hemis were total crap, no one would dare think owning one was prestigious. Dont even mention those average joe viper ACR's...