Ressurecting Pontiac?

[djsnoflake]

I didn't even read your post actually. I just posted in the topic. I am not out to offend you, buddy.

IMO the Grand Am wasn't that great. My buddy had one from brand new and it gave him nothing but troubles. I also really hated all the wierd 'ripples' all over that they used for 'styling'. But you seemed to have had a good experience with them, so maybe I am a bit biased.

Almost any car built by anyone in the 80's was a joke, (with a few exceptions of course)
so we'll just write that decade off as a gimme. I mean for God's sake, a 2010 minivan will probably give a lot of 80-81 sports cars a good race.

And yeah the newer T/A and Judges were good cars. They had 2 good cars, like I said. For every T/A and Judge they made, there were god knows how many Sunfires and *shudders* Aztecs.


PS: Oh yeah, I currently own a Pontiac G5 and my previous 2 fbodies were Trans Ams. Do/Did I like them? Yeah. But it doesn't make sense to kill GM again by having more badge engineered stuff.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by jrc1122

GT = LT?

GXP was very limited in numbers where the SS models are not.

GT is the mainstream top dawg.. Then the GXP is the Tip Top Dawg (less 2k made though)

Look at the G6 and the Malibu. Or previously, the Grand Prix and the Impala. The GT and LT cars match up, as do the LTZ/SS vs GTP/GXP. The fact that few GXP's are sold is merely a reflection of Pontiacs total sales volume. GM sold about as many Impalas as Pontiacs last year. Also, the G8 is not the only GXP out there. So while there were only 2000 G8 GXP's there is also the Solstice GXP and G6 GXP right now (if there's any left on the lots). I don't know if there was ever a G5 GXP, plus the now defunct Grand Prix and Bonneville also had GXP badges. Possibly a few other cars.

Originally Posted by Vega

Seriously? See this is what the re-badging scheme did to Pontiac...
People hate Pontiac because when they think of them all they see is the crappy re=badged products that GM bogged them down with, their NON re-badged products were seriously some of the best cars to ever see asphalt, the Grand Am was an AMAZING success, it was affordable, sporty, aggressive looking, user-friendly, and reliable, it was just an A+ car, same goes for the G8, the G8 did everything the Grand Am did but on a grander scale, the only problem is nobody got to see it because GM gave up on them right when the G8 was about to make its big impact


PS: I heard the same rumor about the Caprice, although i believe it will be a civilian car as well, i dont see GM putting the money into building a new car and limiting the sales to just Police orders, seems like kinda a waste of money to me

Thats why I bought my Grand Am. Though I haven't had it long enough to know about its reliability (I bought it used less than a year ago and its around 55000 miles now, 12000 are mine)

As for the Caprice, the vehicle is already sold overseas much like the G8, though in this case they don't have to change the name, fascia, or badging. If you lived in the Middle East you could buy a Chevrolet Caprice right now.

[jrc1122]

what LT has a 6.0 liter 361 hp engine? I guess that is where I am coming from.
(basically detuned AFM equipped LS2)

I know what you are saying about about 3 levels- so LT= GT in that respect. but the G8 GT is very unique.

Another point- Use a tuner on any LT and it will not perform like an SS model (camaro specifically)

But tune a G8 GT with handheld tuner and it is very close to G8 GXP

They are only seperated by .2 liters
they are very close is what I am saying, where as most LT / SS models are not (well the new watered down SS line up, yes, but not the old SS models, and the New Camaro)

I don't want to come off like that person who thinks his car is something it is not,

But I have a hard time thinking my car is like the Camaro LT, or the Malibu LT, or any other LT model.
Show me any LT model that runs 13.34 (quickest stock time I have seen)
And into the 12s with an intake and tune only (good track conditions)
ya know what I am saying?
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HOTBOX VAPORIZERS

[StangKiller-SS]

It seems as if people forget that when you pull a new Acura TL & Honda Accord side by side that they are in fact the exact same car with a different rear & front fascia, same goes for the Camry & the Lexus 300. Yet when GM did the same thing they got scrutinized for it. Go figure. Yes GM's rebadged mini vans are a disgrace as was the better looking twin of the Cobalt, the G5. I do think that GM pulled the plug on Pontiac at the wrong time. The brand should've become the niche brands with aggressive good looking high performance models only. The G8 had lots of potential that Gm cut short, The Trans Am or GTO could have been reborn, GTO being a sleek two door G8 or the TA being built off the Camaro platform with it's own body design that didn't say rebadged Camaro at all. Then there's the Soltice that was in it's own right a good looking compact roadster. They could've given it a year or two longer in it's body design before re doing it to go head to head with the Z4. They could have even built a more compact version of the G8 that would've made the new G6. Pontiac's branding with being more refined Chevy was over, but it could've survived IMO by going in a completely whole new direction with the G8 leading the way. Who would've thought that Caddliac would go from being an elderly people's car company to sporty American luxury Mercede's Benz fighter in 10 years? On the other hand Buick should have become GM's brand in China & killed it in America.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by jrc1122

what LT has a 6.0 liter 361 hp engine? I guess that is where I am coming from.
(basically detuned AFM equipped LS2)

I know what you are saying about about 3 levels- so LT= GT in that respect. but the G8 GT is very unique.

Another point- Use a tuner on any LT and it will not perform like an SS model (camaro specifically)

But tune a G8 GT with handheld tuner and it is very close to G8 GXP

They are only seperated by .2 liters
they are very close is what I am saying, where as most LT / SS models are not (well the new watered down SS line up, yes, but not the old SS models, and the New Camaro)

I don't want to come off like that person who thinks his car is something it is not,

But I have a hard time thinking my car is like the Camaro LT, or the Malibu LT, or any other LT model.
Show me any LT model that runs 13.34 (quickest stock time I have seen)
And into the 12s with an intake and tune only (good track conditions)
ya know what I am saying?

I see where you are coming from but I consider that to be an apples to oranges comparison. There isn't a Chevrolet sport sedan sold over here. But I'd be willing to put money down that if there were a RWD zeda chevy sedan in LT trim, it would have the L76 and run within a tick or two of the G8 GT. Even the police Caprice won't be a good comparison because its based on a larger car and will have extra weight due to the police gear. The G8 GT might have a 300 lb weight advantage over it.

The G8 isn't the only Pontiac where the GT and GXP have been similar in performance either. The G6 GT has a 219 hp 3.5L while the GXP has a 252 hp 3.6. Same difference in torque too. I don't have a clue what their times are (honestly, who would drag a G6 GT?) but I can't think they'd be too far off from each other.

[All-Or-Nothing]

GM does not have the money to bring back Pontiac. Good thing cuz most Pontiacs sucked anyways.

[Zeus]

I dont see the need for GMC. What is a GMC that wouldn't fit under a 'Chevy' Badge

[The_Blur]

There are 2 major sentiments in this thread. I agree with both of them.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Since it isn't even dead yet...

No. I'd have to vote against the "ressurection" of Pontiac. I would agree only on one of two conditions:

One: GM regains approx. 5-8% market share.
or
Two: They drop another brand and replace it with Pontiac.

Bringing back Pontiac must have conditions. GM is too small in the US market to justify another brand right now. Therefore, the first condition must be an increase in market share. If GM can get bigger, then GM can start spending money on what the Pontiac brand should be. That leads to the next condition. If GM is to bring back Pontiac, it should be a brand that has an identity consistent with its muscle car heritage. It should contain cars with attitude and performance. It should also sell brands that contribute to its success. This is easier said than done because GM has required this brand to sell minivans and other models with less than sporty applications. Pontiac should be a niche brand, and that brand should sell cars with recognized titles—GTO, Firebird, Bonneville, Grand Am. If we ever see Pontiac again, I hope it looks a lot more sporty and stylish than the competition.

Originally Posted by Kelso

to be honest im upset they went out of busisness and would love it if they came back..nice write up

I would love to bring back Pontiac. Despite the conditions I placed on Pontiac's return, I want it to happen. Having a brand based on a strict identity that only produces specialty cars will be a big hit if GM stays loyal to that identity. We know that GM can do it because GM used to sell Hummer, which only contained very unique trucks, and GM currently sells GMC, which similarly sells trucks alone. I'd love to see Pontiac evolved to reflect its past, a history of customized muscle cars built by loyal drivers in the aftermarket. GM could make this a direct competitor with Scion by offering competing new models that are faster and more stylish while at the same time offering the class that allowed the G8 to claim in ads how superior it was to a 5-series BMW.

[jrc1122]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I see where you are coming from but I consider that to be an apples to oranges comparison. There isn't a Chevrolet sport sedan sold over here. But I'd be willing to put money down that if there were a RWD zeda chevy sedan in LT trim, it would have the L76 and run within a tick or two of the G8 GT. Even the police Caprice won't be a good comparison because its based on a larger car and will have extra weight due to the police gear. The G8 GT might have a 300 lb weight advantage over it.

The G8 isn't the only Pontiac where the GT and GXP have been similar in performance either. The G6 GT has a 219 hp 3.5L while the GXP has a 252 hp 3.6. Same difference in torque too. I don't have a clue what their times are (honestly, who would drag a G6 GT?) but I can't think they'd be too far off from each other.

apples and oranges indeed.

the LT trim on the New 2010 Camaro compared to the G8 GT was more what I guess I was saying in the first place.

But since the Camaro (for now) only has two trim levels it makes it hard for a straight comparison with a car that has 3 trim levels. (G8)
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[American Muscle]

Originally Posted by Vega

We're all thinking it so im just saying it, should we rally to bring back our long lost evil twin? I've been pondering this, along with many many other people i would assume, so im very interested in starting a thread about it. So to start off the discussion here's a few reasons why i believe Pontiac should be re-instated:


-First of all Pontiac started the "muscle car" as we know it today when it dropped the biggest V8 it could find into the Pontiac Le Mans (which would go on to become the GTO) and challenged Ferrari to a duel of GTOs. After the smoke cleared Pontiac had pulled off a miraculous win and so born was the American muscle car. (lets just neglect the fact that Pontiac cheated, LOL, they arent known as the "Darth Vadar of the road" for nothing LOL). Not only did Pontiac start the muscle car, it reigned supreme through most of the muscle car era, and became the last standing true muscle car after the government castrated our beloved coupes. Pontiac kept the dream alive for years with the 455, then the 400, and still refused to compramise by adding turbo chargers when all else failed.

-Pontiac started it with the GTO but remained on the fore-front of "badass" with the Trans Am. Sure Mustang fans can boast that they have the only muscle car to survive every year since its birth, but who can possibly compare a 2nd Gen Trans Am to a fox-body Mustang? It just doesnt happen, the econo-box stang gets lost in that menacing black coat, the bezeled gauges, and especially that torque-breathing dragon on the hood. From the muscle car era, past the muscle car era, into the modern era, the Trans Am was THE car to have hands down.

-Now i could go on and on about the company's past exploits but what's really important is the market place today. Recently the market has swayed into the favor of the muscle car. People are putting aside their petty penny-pinching attitudes for a taste of true freedom that only an American V8 can provide. Now in a time like this, how can Pontiac be over-looked? Pontiac is a virtual gold-mine waiting to be tapped, the GTO, Trans Am, and any other performance models that arent just re-badged bogus models would sell out faster than anything seen in recent history. How can GM stand and say GMC is a better investment than Pontiac when all it consists of is re-badged Chevrolet trucks? Its just not the same "muscle car war" without the flagship bad-boy brand. Pontiac could be the definate savior GM needs right now if they would just put in the time and effort needed. No more lame re-badging, stick to the hot issue right now which is muscle, muscle, MUSCLE! and never stray from the idea that Pontiac is the premiere performance brand.

**With the market today, how can it be over-looked so easily? So I ask the publics oppinion, what would you think about a revival of the red arrow?

Solid thread, real solid. Bring it back baby, the more American Muscle the better. The "bad boy" cars and attitude need to be reinstated rather than a million hybrids whispering around the roads. GO BIG OR GO HOME.

[WhiteCrane]

I have been a huge supporter of killing Pontiac, and GMC for 10 years. Pontiac sells re badged Chevrolet cars and GMC sells re badged Chevrolet trucks at exorbitant price increases (GMC) that have for years failed to offer what the competition has (GMC).

[Vega]

So this has been a pretty good discussion, its interesting to hear people's oppinions on whether or not Pontiac should come back and what issues there are with it and all...i was really surprised to see so many people against Pontiac really, i mean i know for a long time Pontiac has been pretty sheepish with the whole rebadging issue but GMC is an exclusively rebadged brand, i cant think of any GMC vehicles that cannot be bought as a Chevy, but then again the truck force is a big selling point for GM so i think either GMC needs to be ousted or else Chevy needs to stop making trucks and leave that soley to GMC (im more in favor of the latter) i do think Pontiac needs to come back though, they were always amazing at building cars that were perfectly balanced in economy, performance, luxury, and looks, you cant really blame Pontiac for the rebadging thing, i mean it only lasted a few years (maybe 2002 to now? idk) but you know that wasnt their decision it was all GM's call, when Pontiac made a car (such as the GTO, Firebird/Trans Am, Grand Am, Grand Prix, or G8) they totally didnt skimp on the details, they made those cars to a very high standard and balanced them perfectly...if Pontiac were ressurected i most likely would never buy anything that didnt hail from the red arrow...unfortunatly now with the Camaro being around the $38k range and the Challenger being seriously underpowered for its price (hefty price at that) im almost considering picking up a Mustang =/ makes me sad but its an amazing blend of looks, performance, economy, and you can aftermarket damn near anything onto a mustang by now

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Vega

So this has been a pretty good discussion, its interesting to hear people's oppinions on whether or not Pontiac should come back and what issues there are with it and all...i was really surprised to see so many people against Pontiac really, i mean i know for a long time Pontiac has been pretty sheepish with the whole rebadging issue but GMC is an exclusively rebadged brand, i cant think of any GMC vehicles that cannot be bought as a Chevy, but then again the truck force is a big selling point for GM so i think either GMC needs to be ousted or else Chevy needs to stop making trucks and leave that soley to GMC (im more in favor of the latter) i do think Pontiac needs to come back though, they were always amazing at building cars that were perfectly balanced in economy, performance, luxury, and looks, you cant really blame Pontiac for the rebadging thing, i mean it only lasted a few years (maybe 2002 to now? idk) but you know that wasnt their decision it was all GM's call, when Pontiac made a car (such as the GTO, Firebird/Trans Am, Grand Am, Grand Prix, or G8) they totally didnt skimp on the details, they made those cars to a very high standard and balanced them perfectly...if Pontiac were ressurected i most likely would never buy anything that didnt hail from the red arrow...unfortunatly now with the Camaro being around the $38k range and the Challenger being seriously underpowered for its price (hefty price at that) im almost considering picking up a Mustang =/ makes me sad but its an amazing blend of looks, performance, economy, and you can aftermarket damn near anything onto a mustang by now

I am all for Pontiac being here as a performance brand.

A focused, 1-3 model performance brand.

But I think GM needs to focus on making better cars for the brands that are necessary instead of attempting to rationalize keeping on all their brands.

[BlackieRay]

If GM recovers, and if they can afford a Pontiac engine platform, and if they can use a smaller RWD platform than the Camaro I would say build a new Pontiac Firebird, preferably styled as a 4-seater Corvette with classic in-your-face Pontiac styling.

The Grand Am and Grand Prix would have to be sporty turbocharged 6cyls. But GM has to work on its current brands for now, rebuilding them with top quality, styling and durability. Pontiac will have to wait for a few years.