Awwww $hit !!!!

[Revo1]

Are they for real? What's with Genesis and trying so hard to fit in with the muscle crowd?

[Stew]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I'd say a DI variant of the LS3 should be good for ~500 hp, give or take.

But don't expect that the DI engines will stay the same size as the current crop of V8's. I've got a gut feeling that GM will go back to using 5.7L engines as their mainstream V8's.

It would be awesome if the did a 350 ci 5.7 (instead of 346 like the LS1). imagine 350 vs 302 vs Hemi, gotta love that idea!

[Camaro_Corvette]

Originally Posted by 2010 SSRS

definitely better looking that the mustang.

I'd have to agree.

Originally Posted by PonyKiller74

They can do all they want with that ugly a** rice burner.... nothing looks better than pure American muscle!

Rice? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing much rice being cooked here

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by syr74

My guess is that they were telling the truth when they said it doesn't fit, and if we see a V8-powered Genesis coupe it wont be in this generation.



I think the 500+hp estimate is doable, but touching on your emissions comment if it could be produced in an emissions-satisfying trim at that power level my money says it would suck gas like nobodies business. Look at how much petrol the LS7 sucks down compared to it's lesser brethren even with 7.0L of displacement. A production trim, 6.3L version of the same basic engine that produces as much power probably wouldn't even manage a rated 20mpg highway in a Camaro.

Also worth mentioning, Direct Injection almost certainly isn't going to bring as much to the table with the pushrod V8 as a lot of folks are hoping because one of direct injections most troublesome shortcomings was overcome in part by using one of the inherent advantages of a DOHC design. Put simply naturally aspirated, DI engines still technically suffer from fairly serious drive-ability issues under certain fairly specific conditions, you just never encounter that problem because you never see those conditions while driving. The really abridged version is that you end up with some fuel/air mixture issues that cause problems with the combustion process and, the next thing you know, you're mega bucks, DI V8 is 100hp down on power and running like a 9N Ford tractor.

The reason you don't see this in the DI DOHC engines being produced right now is because they have literally programed the engine system to run around the problem. You're driving down the road, approaching a scenario where engine load, rpm, etc, etc are all going to merge perfectly to create the above mentioned problem and presto-chango the camshafts swap profiles, the timing changes, and the problem never occurs and all the while you never notice that anything happened to prevent it.

One of the problems with the implementation of DI on pushrod engines thus far is that you simply can't fix this problem in that same way because there just isn't enough room on the one camshaft a pushrod engine uses to employ the same level of variability two intake and two exhaust camshafts can provide for obvious reasons. And since that is exactly how virtually every other company on earth fixes this problem that creates a problem. My guess is that all the buzz about a cutting edge combustion chamber has something to do with this, but I will be curious to see how well it actually works at solving these issues.

Throw in the fact that DI by itself is really only a 5 percent or so improvement on a DOHC motor on a good day and I think this is an area where what the average GM enthusiast wants this to mean and what GM is actually using it for are two different things. My guess? The advantage GM is looking for with DI is the ability to run higher compression in a smaller, pushrod V8 so they can downsize the engines in the search for better fuel economy without losing very much in the way of power production.

You're going to have to go into a bit more detail for me. On the surface, I don't see any inherent conflict between DI and OHV engines. The air doesn't care about the valves that let it into or out of a cylinder. It will get cooled either way by the vapourization of the high pressure fuel. Plus, the engines will feature VVT and while it won't allow the same degree of control as what can be achieved with DOHC's, it should still be sufficient. So I don't see where the problem lies.

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by syr74

My guess is that they were telling the truth when they said it doesn't fit, and if we see a V8-powered Genesis coupe it wont be in this generation.



I think the 500+hp estimate is doable, but touching on your emissions comment if it could be produced in an emissions-satisfying trim at that power level my money says it would suck gas like nobodies business. Look at how much petrol the LS7 sucks down compared to it's lesser brethren even with 7.0L of displacement. A production trim, 6.3L version of the same basic engine that produces as much power probably wouldn't even manage a rated 20mpg highway in a Camaro.

Also worth mentioning, Direct Injection almost certainly isn't going to bring as much to the table with the pushrod V8 as a lot of folks are hoping because one of direct injections most troublesome shortcomings was overcome in part by using one of the inherent advantages of a DOHC design. Put simply naturally aspirated, DI engines still technically suffer from fairly serious drive-ability issues under certain fairly specific conditions, you just never encounter that problem because you never see those conditions while driving. The really abridged version is that you end up with some fuel/air mixture issues that cause problems with the combustion process and, the next thing you know, you're mega bucks, DI V8 is 100hp down on power and running like a 9N Ford tractor.

The reason you don't see this in the DI DOHC engines being produced right now is because they have literally programed the engine system to run around the problem. You're driving down the road, approaching a scenario where engine load, rpm, etc, etc are all going to merge perfectly to create the above mentioned problem and presto-chango the camshafts swap profiles, the timing changes, and the problem never occurs and all the while you never notice that anything happened to prevent it.

One of the problems with the implementation of DI on pushrod engines thus far is that you simply can't fix this problem in that same way because there just isn't enough room on the one camshaft a pushrod engine uses to employ the same level of variability two intake and two exhaust camshafts can provide for obvious reasons. And since that is exactly how virtually every other company on earth fixes this problem that creates a problem. My guess is that all the buzz about a cutting edge combustion chamber has something to do with this, but I will be curious to see how well it actually works at solving these issues.

Throw in the fact that DI by itself is really only a 5 percent or so improvement on a DOHC motor on a good day and I think this is an area where what the average GM enthusiast wants this to mean and what GM is actually using it for are two different things. My guess? The advantage GM is looking for with DI is the ability to run higher compression in a smaller, pushrod V8 so they can downsize the engines in the search for better fuel economy without losing very much in the way of power production.

The Ford engineers that made the new 5.0, that was designed with DI in mind, said that on a na motor DI was worth about a 1% gain in hp by itself.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

These Koreans man... they know how to push some buttons

Link

why the facepalm? Seriously, it's so overused it has no effect any more. People should refrain from over-using it so that it has the requisite effect again.

I mean seriously: why the facepalm? This is good news. A HP arms race is a good thing for consumers.

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by rez333

why the facepalm? Seriously, it's so overused it has no effect any more. People should refrain from over-using it so that it has the requisite effect again.

I mean seriously: why the facepalm? This is good news. A HP arms race is a good thing for consumers.

[TheCaptain]

LoL

[rez333]

It's not funny. I knew someone was going to do it. It was too obvious of a bait. Predictable = not funny.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Brokinarrow

[syr74]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

You're going to have to go into a bit more detail for me. On the surface, I don't see any inherent conflict between DI and OHV engines. The air doesn't care about the valves that let it into or out of a cylinder. It will get cooled either way by the vapourization of the high pressure fuel.

You're making this a bit more about OHV vs DOHC than it really is, although I can see why. Let me explain a bit bettter. There are mixture problems severe enough to cause driveability issues in any naturally aspirated, internal combustion engine when DI is added be it OHV or DOHC. The issue here is that the way virtually every manufacturer seems to have fixed those issues thus is by making use of the ever more complex and adaptable VVT systems used in the DOHC engines to literally steer the engine around those problem areas. The problem isn't gone, you just never actually see it. Other factors come into play (timing, etc) which make the computer just as much a part of the colution as the VVT, but the adaptability of the VVT valvetrains is a major component of how they solve this issue and only the more complex VVT setups seem to have worked. (again, fwiw forced induction engines have never really had this issue which is certainly a part of the reason why they were receiving DI in meaningful number first)

See the conflict now? At best the VVT system in a single camshaft engine is going to be a match for the simpler DOHC VVT systems because there simply isn't enough room on the cams to match the more complex stuff. Factor in the reality that intake and exhaust are completely independent on a DOHC setup, something else the single cam engine cannot match, and you can probably see where I'm going here.

Put simply, the fix for DI engine issues thus far has either been to slap a supercharger on it or to use the very complex VVT systems in the newest engines to essentially filter the issues out of the driving equation. You can do the former with a pushrod mill, but you can't do the latter.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Plus, the engines will feature VVT and while it won't allow the same degree of control as what can be achieved with DOHC's, it should still be sufficient. So I don't see where the problem lies.

So we end up here, where we realize that GM is probably using something else to solve the DI issue since we know from the experience of other manufacturers that basic VVT systems aren't good enough to fix the issue. As I said before I suspect the combustion breakthroughs being talked about for the new pushrod have everything to do with making DI work on an engine that can't use a complicated VVT setup.

[Captain Awesome]

This discussion of the Gen V engines is fascinating.

I suppose they will hit the Corvette first and then in the next Camaro when it comes out.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

This discussion of the Gen V engines is fascinating.

I suppose they will hit the Corvette first and then in the next Camaro when it comes out.

The gen V v8 will be in camaros long before the 2014/2015 gen 6 camaros. It was basically completed late last year by my understanding. They are already running a race version of the gen V right now for leman's. My guess 2012 model year we will atleast see it in the vette, maybe even in the camaro.

[Captain Awesome]

Is there any solid info/specs available for the Gen V? What is it that makes it so advanced?