Report: Oshawa to build new Cadillac XTS, DTS dead

[MrCool]

All-yall' need to go to the bathroom and pull out what ever is up your @$$.

Just 'cause your right doesn't mean ya have to be an *donkey* about it.

Otherwise people like davinchi (yea, I misspelled it) and Eistein (probably misspelled that too) would be horrible communicators.

Now, exuse me, I'll be in the bathroom.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I have my ideas...as we all do...but I'm comfortable knowing I'm probably wrong, that there are things I haven't considered because I don't know about them...and that there are people in the upper floors of the Renaissance Center that have been doing this stuff far longer than I have...

Then you have the 31 year old dude that hasn't even graduated college yet running the US auto market!!!!

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I have my ideas...as we all do...but I'm comfortable knowing I'm probably wrong, that there are things I haven't considered because I don't know about them...and that there are people in the upper floors of the Renaissance Center that have been doing this stuff far longer than I have...

See the textcast from Edmunds I just posted in another thread for thoughts on the insularity and closed thinking at the Renaissance center.

Now I offer this: Volkwagen got their flagship by rebadging Audi's flagship. It worked in Europe but failed miserably in the U.S. market. And that is taking a superior platform and giving it to an inferior badge. GM is attempting to do the opposite here, by rebadging the next Impala, the flagship of the relatively inferior Chevrolet badge and making it the flagship of the superior Cadillac badge. Now I will gladly assume the next Impala, even in FWD/AWD configuration, will be just as fine a flagship for Chevrolet as the new Taurus is for Ford. However, the MKS proves that taking such a car and trying to pass it off with little more than a luxury badge for thousands more will fail, both as a product and in promoting the brand. Lincoln is not a serious tier 1 luxury brand. Neither now is Cadillac.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I disagree. On the grounds that he may be right in a perfect world, but I can guarantee you that they didn't sit down and think..."hmmm...first thing that comes to mind is to rebadge an Impala into a Caddy." There are other factors....

Also...since when did Luxury and RWD go hand in hand? I agree RWD is preferred...but why is that the number one enemy of this car? Besides, most of Europe's Luxury fleet is AWD...so make this car AWD only. Problem solved.

...And who gave this crazy the right to declare Caddy not a Tier 1 Luxury brand?

Hmf. I'm tired of reading this crap. Everyone's got an opinion -- unfortunately, the ones with airtime are usually arrogant loudmouths.

[FenwickHockey65]

I would absolutely love to know exactly where GM said that the XTS will be nothing more than a rebadged Impala. Please direct me to the press release.

You guys are whining and complaining about a car that isn't scheduled for production for years. Furthermore, barely anyone outside of GM knows anything about the XTS besides that it will be called XTS, based on the EpII platform, and built at Oshawa.

This is why GM hates releasing information ahead of time. Because people start speculating and the car already has a bad reputation before it even hits the drawing board. Also why I chose not to post this article here, because I knew people would freak out, and unfortunately, it ended up being posted here anyways.

[drivingincamaro]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

This is why GM hates releasing information ahead of time. Because people start speculating and the car already has a bad reputation before it even hits the drawing board. Also why I chose not to post this article here, because I knew people would freak out, and unfortunately, it ended up being posted here anyways.

totally agree, you know guys

gm and Fbodfather could of left us in the Dark until this year for the camaro information But no they decided to release information and please us,


Be happy/thankfull you're getting this Information from GM,

[stovt001]

What bothers me is that this has become a GM apologist site. When it is up in the air, we're all demanding RWD. We all know the 7 series, the S class, and every other flagship luxury car I mentioned are RWD for a good reason. We all know which luxury cars and brands are successful globally and which are not. However, now that GM has settled on a plebian FWD platform, the same people calling for a no-compromise, globally competitive Cadillac are now saying what a brilliant move this is for GM. The fact that Fenwickhockey65 chose not to post the article because he knew people would freak out indicates deep down he feels it isn't exactly what we wanted.

And now I come to Dragon:

First things first. I don't appreciate anyone calling me a "crazy" much less a moderator. I'm sure if you'll review my posts, though I posted strong opinions, I never called anyone names. That is a rule of these forums and I would appreciate it if they were followed. Maybe I don't have the authority to declare Cadillac to be a top notch luxury brand or a second rate player like Lincoln, but I feel it is very safe to say a second take on the exact same DTS formula, which is precisely what the XTS is described in this press release to be, will not be seriously compared to the big European luxury flagships. If the DTS was not well received, why would the XTS be?

Also, I would sharply disagree with your assertion the majority of Europe's luxury fleet is AWD. Besides Audi, which is known for its premium AWD, they're all RWD, as I listed above. Audi's AWD furthermore is far more advanced than a simple entry-level, Chevrolet type, FWD based AWD system. Audi can pull it off because their AWD system is very good, and they're known for that. Cadillac is not known for that. Thanks to the CTS they have a fine reputation for RWD.

Finally, I will agree absolutely that this isn't the solution that they would arrive at in a perfect world. Apparently GM does not have the resources to produce a competitive flagship, so so we'll get the same old DTS formula again. But just because that's all they can do doesn't mean we should change our standards and embrace this just for the sake of supporting GM. I joined this site because I like good cars, and the Camaro represents GM's offering of a fine car. It is for that exact reason that I will not defend the XTS. If GM can't make a good car, we shouldn't take it.

Edit: concerning the XTS's connection to the Impala:

The DTS is a front-wheel drive car, but the XTS is expected to the share the Epsilon II platform with the Regal and the new Impala.

Funny, the DTS shares a platform with the current inadequate Impala and Buick Lucern. The new, renamed DTS will share a platform with the Impala and Buick Regal. This new GM sure is revolutionary!

[FenwickHockey65]

When did I ever say I was happy about this? Do I want the XTS to be RWD? Of course. Do I know if GM has the resources to do it? No, I don't, and that's where you and I differ. Again, going back to the "armchair CEOs" thing, the people who are "car guys" see nothing more than product without regard to finances or resources. Zeta is dead, the investment is closed after Camaro. Sigma has already been maxed out with CTS. Alpha is still a few years off, and it will underpin the sub-CTS model and the next-gen CTS. GM has yet to develop a full size RWD platform, and in the current financial state they're in, they may not be able to develop such a platform for some time. At a time where Americans already have a negative view of GM and are expecting them to make good use of their tax dollars, a massive RWD luxury sedan may not settle well in the minds of Americans, exactly why the Z28 was shelved.

I also think you're totally missing the fact that the EpII platform is one of the most versatile platforms GM's ever developed. One of the main priorities in its engineering was AWD, and for all you know, the XTS could be AWD exclusive. The AWD system in EpII cars is the Haldex system which has already been proven to be an extremely sophisticated and well-engineered system.

All I'm saying is that maybe you should see and drive the car before you decide to criticize the hell out of it. Look at the new SRX. It's been praised up and down by journalists for its ride and handling, and it's built on a FWD platform. People did the same thing you're doing now before then, "Oh God, this car is going to be total **** since it's not RWD," and they ended up being proven wrong.

So, in summary...
-I do agree that this car should be RWD, but given the current state of finances and resources, I understand why it's on EpII.
-Am I happy about this? Not really, but there's nothing I can do about it.
-I will reserve my judgement on this car until I see it in person and drive it.

The reason I chose not to post the article is because I'm sick and tired of reading threads that degenerate into overreactions.

And finally, DTS does not share a platform with Impala.

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

So, in summary...
-I do agree that this car should be RWD, but given the current state of finances and resources, I understand why it's on EpII.
-Am I happy about this? Not really, but there's nothing I can do about it.
-I will reserve my judgement on this car until I see it in person and drive it.

The reason I chose not to post the article is because I'm sick and tired of reading threads that degenerate into overreactions.

And finally, DTS does not share a platform with Impala.

Actually, we find ourselves in agreement here. This is being done because GM can't build a proper platform for the DTS/STS replacement. However, where we differ is the manner in which we perceive this affecting GM. If I thought this was a temporary stopgap to replace those models until a good premium platform larger than Alpha was developed (Zeta III? ) then I would absolutely be all for this. However, given the current lineup of large FWD GM sedans and how long they've been around, I don't anticipate GM fixing this quickly. That's where I get worried. Instead of being a quick fix until better resources are in place, to me this just screams out that the New GM is not very far removed from the Old GM at all.

And about the DTS sharing the Impala and Lucerne platform - I've read many articles that lumped all three on the W platform, along with other large GM FWD sedans. I did more research to double check, and you're absolutely right. It is on the K platform all by itself. Interesting, those other articles I read were clearly wrong, but they were from pretty mainstream automotive media. How similar are the K and W platforms?

And about the SRX being FWD/AWD - Its all about the segment. The most successful luxury crossover, the Lexus RX, follows the same formula. That's what buyers in the segment want. When it comes to full size luxury sedans, the most successful models - S class and 7 series, are RWD. That's what buyers in that segment want.

So I hope GM proves me wrong. I really do hope they actually finally do Alpha, after promising it for years and then pushing it back and dropping it. I really hope that a few years after the XTS, they have the resources from succeeding in other endeavors that they can build a proper flagship. However, the only thing that worries me is that they have a history of sitting back once they make a model and waiting to replace it until long after it has faded into irrelevance.

So since we are agreeing on the fundamentals, I think we'll just have to disagree on the long-term consequences and outcomes, and we'll have to wait to see who's prediction is right.