Bankruptcy !!

[War Eagle]

One thing is for sure, I am going to move up my timetable to get a new SS Camaro and try to locate one as soon as possible once they begin production.

The SS will never be made in great quantities and I really want one of them.

Steve

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Well War Eagle pretty much summed up the bondholder side of things. Only thing I would add there is that they are creditor number 1 right now which means they will get paid BEFORE the taxpayers gets their money back. The govt. is well aware of this and is looking for ways to get in front of them.

With respect to the UAW, there are still piles of money which they do not want to let go. One of the biggest is "freedom 48". What is this? It is the ability for a UAW worker to retire after 30 years and get full pension immediately. They do not have to wait until they are 65 like everyone else. They start making the pension the very next year. Who get's that? Not even government workers get that cushy deal. Conceptually, a retired UAW worker can be getting a pension for longer then he/she has been working! How is that sustainable for any organization?

Another issue are 'non-billable' jobs which exist but have nothing to do with actually building a car. Every GM factory still has dozens of union committeemen - the bargaining committee, shop committee, health and safety committee, and recreation committee who actually are paid by the car companies. In the past, these positions used to be carried out by workers who were also on the plant floor everyday. Now these are all unique jobs. Still lots of money on the table my freind!

Not true, the military gets that deal after 20 years, sooner if medically retired. I am not sure, but I believe municipal employees get a similar deal. Also, I have heard the term double dipper applied to Florida state employees, where they retire from a position such as Fire Chief after a certain number of years and are rehired the following day in the same or similar position, they then receive retirement pay and salary for the position. My father-in-law is retired UP and making out like a fat rat, before 65. Plenty of people living the good life besides UAW members.

[War Eagle]

Not true, the military gets that deal after 20 years, sooner if medically retired. I am not sure, but I believe municipal employees get a similar deal. Also, I have heard the term double dipper applied to Florida state employees, where they retire from a position such as Fire Chief after a certain number of years and are rehired the following day in the same or similar position, they then receive retirement pay and salary for the position. My father-in-law is retired UP and making out like a fat rat, before 65. Plenty of people living the good life besides UAW members.
__________________
D.R.

.................................................. .................................................. .....

D.R.

You are 100% correct and it is a disgrace here in Florida. We recently had an editorial in the local paper that highlighted the "retirement" issue, most Floridians had no idea how bad it is.

Another example was the President of the local Community College who retired and came back to work the next week. His base salary was $150,000 plus nearly 100,000 in pension. He worked three more years with a total income of $250,000. The Board approved it when we could have gone out and hired a new President for $100,000. Good old boy network is alive and well.

As for Military Retirees, They deserve everything they get and I wish it were more. They are the ones that put it on the line for us everyday and I for one appreciate it.

Steve

[dbotsfordtat]

Gm, Chrysler, Bank of America, Citgroup, ect... They are all insolvent, the real question is- What happens when the next one fails? GM is really just a small part of a much, much bigger problem and it goes way beyond UAW. All those on this thread that think letting GM go chapter 11 is inevitable and good are the same folks that thought letting Lehman Brothers go bankrupt was the right thing to do. They are the same folks that think we got to this point by having to many regulations on Wall Street, to many taxes on wealth, ect... Freemarket fundamentalist, they are to business what Christian Fundamentalist are to Christianity. We've had eight years plus of this crap and here we are, somebody is going to have to take it in the shorts for all the bullsh*t Wall Street has been peddling. Even if you were able to keep the whole house of cards standing after GM goes through chapter 11, and you gut the UAW, the credit markets are still frozen because of all the crap debt nobody wants to buy. All the bullsh*t CDO's (Collateralized debt obligations) and other fancy investment vehicles Wall Street came up with to defraud investors with Washington's openly bribed help, (both parties) I might add. Thats the Elephant standing in the middle of the room that nobody wants to acknowledge. IMO we are in a Depression now unless/until we/Washington finds a way to deal with all the bad debt. GM is a vicitm of this bad debt and we have to keep them on life support until we figure it out. Best I've ever heard it put was, " recession is when the guy down the street loses his job, a depression is when you lose yours." We'll see how many free market nut jobs think this is a good idea after a couple more million jobs disappear.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Not true, the military gets that deal after 20 years, sooner if medically retired. I am not sure, but I believe municipal employees get a similar deal. Also, I have heard the term double dipper applied to Florida state employees, where they retire from a position such as Fire Chief after a certain number of years and are rehired the following day in the same or similar position, they then receive retirement pay and salary for the position. My father-in-law is retired UP and making out like a fat rat, before 65. Plenty of people living the good life besides UAW members.
__________________
D.R.

.................................................. .................................................. .....

D.R.

You are 100% correct and it is a disgrace here in Florida. We recently had an editorial in the local paper that highlighted the "retirement" issue, most Floridians had no idea how bad it is.

Another example was the President of the local Community College who retired and came back to work the next week. His base salary was $150,000 plus nearly 100,000 in pension. He worked three more years with a total income of $250,000. The Board approved it when we could have gone out and hired a new President for $100,000. Good old boy network is alive and well.

As for Military Retirees, They deserve everything they get and I wish it were more. They are the ones that put it on the line for us everyday and I for one appreciate it.

Steve

Hey Steve, I'm one of those retired military and I appreciate your support, but I also believe if they can do it for me, we can afford to do it for the guy's and gal's at GM and every company in America. We just have to do it smart. Thats what I like to believe I was serving for, nobody should be hungry, homeless or without healthcare in our Great Country.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Not true, the military gets that deal after 20 years, sooner if medically retired. I am not sure, but I believe municipal employees get a similar deal. Also, I have heard the term double dipper applied to Florida state employees, where they retire from a position such as Fire Chief after a certain number of years and are rehired the following day in the same or similar position, they then receive retirement pay and salary for the position. My father-in-law is retired UP and making out like a fat rat, before 65. Plenty of people living the good life besides UAW members.

I'm all for that actually. Most military don't make enough money to begin with and if they served their country for 20 years, then they deserve a decent retirement.

The problem with GM is that you have more GM retirees then you do have employees. How can GM possibly afford to keep doing that?

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I'm all for that actually. Most military don't make enough money to begin with and if they served their country for 20 years, then they deserve a decent retirement.

The problem with GM is that you have more GM retirees then you do have employees. How can GM possibly afford to keep doing that?

Stop expecting our employees to compete with third world countries like china, we can't compete with twenty two cents an hour and we're suppose to give a sh*t about human rights, so stop doing it. Start universal healthcare instead of expecting companies to provide it, I'm sure there are lots of other things that would help but I have to go do another tattoo before I get outsourced. The most important thing is to get a handle on the corruption in Washington and on Wall Street, if we can do that, anything is possible.

[OUR72GTO]

We can compete if you take away some this excess.

Heard today on CBC that GM Canada workers get 26 "spa days" a year and up to 13 weeks of vacation. ADD that to every car.

And we do have universal health care here.

[rmyers]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Gm, Chrysler, Bank of America, Citgroup, ect... They are all insolvent, the real question is- What happens when the next one fails? GM is really just a small part of a much, much bigger problem and it goes way beyond UAW. All those on this thread that think letting GM go chapter 11 is inevitable and good are the same folks that thought letting Lehman Brothers go bankrupt was the right thing to do. They are the same folks that think we got to this point by having to many regulations on Wall Street, to many taxes on wealth, ect... Freemarket fundamentalist, they are to business what Christian Fundamentalist are to Christianity. We've had eight years plus of this crap and here we are, somebody is going to have to take it in the shorts for all the bullsh*t Wall Street has been peddling. Even if you were able to keep the whole house of cards standing after GM goes through chapter 11, and you gut the UAW, the credit markets are still frozen because of all the crap debt nobody wants to buy. All the bullsh*t CDO's (Collateralized debt obligations) and other fancy investment vehicles Wall Street came up with to defraud investors with Washington's openly bribed help, (both parties) I might add. Thats the Elephant standing in the middle of the room that nobody wants to acknowledge. IMO we are in a Depression now unless/until we/Washington finds a way to deal with all the bad debt. GM is a vicitm of this bad debt and we have to keep them on life support until we figure it out. Best I've ever heard it put was, " recession is when the guy down the street loses his job, a depression is when you lose yours." We'll see how many free market nut jobs think this is a good idea after a couple more million jobs disappear.

dbotsfordtat - You give far too much credit to the government's ability to fix this mess and you slam the free market even though it is 100% responsible for the successes we have achieved as a nation. I challenge you or anyone on this forum to site a single government program or department except for the military that is run successfully. I also challenge you to show me 1 single example where government spending to the degree that is being proposed today has helped. I patiently await the opportunity to be educated.

Because I believe in the free market, I am a "nut job"? Are you a government employee? GM and other failing buinesses are victims of failed business policies and projections, in addition to the credit crisis. Just like any other failed business or household, they are guilty for not doing due diligence and having proper reserve funds in place.

Finally, you think this nation achieved its success by laid off employees flocking to the governmernt to provide them with a job? I think not. If you are ever unemployed, you may be very depending on one us free market nut jobs to provide you with employment, because government jobs are few and far between.

I would encourage you to tone down the rhetoric and name calling. We can all disagree, but we don't need to call each other names.

The bottom line is that us free-market nut consrevatives have history and proof on our side. All the proponents of large government spending and pseudo socialist/private companies are seeking a pie-in-the-sky, utopia that never works, and if they would simply read their history, they would realize it.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by rmyers

dbotsfordtat - You give far too much credit to the government's ability to fix this mess and you slam the free market even though it is 100% responsible for the successes we have achieved as a nation. I challenge you or anyone on this forum to site a single government program or department except for the military that is run successfully. I also challenge you to show me 1 single example where government spending to the degree that is being proposed today has helped. I patiently await the opportunity to be educated.

Because I believe in the free market, I am a "nut job"? Are you a government employee? GM and other failing buinesses are victims of failed business policies and projections, in addition to the credit crisis. Just like any other failed business or household, they are guilty for not doing due diligence and having proper reserve funds in place.

Finally, you think this nation achieved its success by laid off employees flocking to the governmernt to provide them with a job? I think not. If you are ever unemployed, you may be very depending on one us free market nut jobs to provide you with employment, because government jobs are few and far between.

I would encourage you to tone down the rhetoric and name calling. We can all disagree, but we don't need to call each other names.

The bottom line is that us free-market nut consrevatives have history and proof on our side. All the proponents of large government spending and pseudo socialist/private companies are seeking a pie-in-the-sky, utopia that never works, and if they would simply read their history, they would realize it.

My humble apologize for the nut job comment. I thought the last administration was conservative / free market? Interesting how they started throwing taxpayer money at all the free market bankers. Classic example of conservative philosophy, privatize the profits, socialize the losses. I have to go home now, but will expand on this tomorrow. Again, sorry for the nut job comment, it wasn't meant to be directed at anyone on this site, it was meant for all the freemarket/welfare receiving bankers and businesses.

[rmyers]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

My humble apologize for the nut job comment. I thought the last administration was conservative / free market? Interesting how they started throwing taxpayer money at all the free market bankers. Classic example of conservative philosophy, privatize the profits, socialize the losses. I have to go home now, but will expand on this tomorrow. Again, sorry for the nut job comment, it wasn't meant to be directed at anyone on this site, it was meant for all the freemarket/welfare receiving bankers and businesses.

You keep bringing up the last administration and somehow assuming that everything they did was truly conservative. Apparently you didn't like Bush and thats ok. There are many things he did, that I did not agree with, like the bailout of the banks, or the huge medicare bill that he past. That was anything but conservative. Don't confuse the republican party with true conservatism. In many ways they are not.

Classic example of conservative philosophy is to privatize the profits and socialize the losses? How do you draw this correlation? Where do you get this stuff? Give me an example of where this is written or espoused as a "Conservative Policy". Just because George Bush did it, doesn't make it a conservative policy. You have to put aside the politics and stop bringing up the Bush admininstation. In about 4 more months Obama and the liberal politicians regardless of their party will own this problem and I plan to call everyone of them out on it regardless of their party.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by rmyers

You keep bringing up the last administration and somehow assuming that everything they did was truly conservative. Apparently you didn't like Bush and thats ok. There are many things he did, that I did not agree with, like the bailout of the banks, or the huge medicare bill that he past. That was anything but conservative. Don't confuse the republican party with true conservatism. In many ways they are not.

Classic example of conservative philosophy is to privatize the profits and socialize the losses? How do you draw this correlation? Where do you get this stuff? Give me an example of where this is written or espoused as a "Conservative Policy". Just because George Bush did it, doesn't make it a conservative policy. You have to put aside the politics and stop bringing up the Bush admininstation. In about 4 more months Obama and the liberal politicians regardless of their party will own this problem and I plan to call everyone of them out on it regardless of their party.

Maybe you could enlighten me on when/where conservatisim/free market is creating this utopia? If Bush wasn't the guy to bring your politcal philosophy to light, who is? Whom should I have voted for to get the "True Conservative"? Where is Conservatisim flourishing? I would assume such a great system would be everywhere.
The condition of our Country is indeed the result of Free Market Capitalism, this is what free market ideas have wrought. Eight years of tax cuts for the wealthist Americans, the investor class. Where are all the jobs those tax cuts were suppose to create? China, Mexico, South America. How about the free market solution to the healthcare crisis? Nearly 50 million uninsured Americans and growing. The only thing that has gotten bigger in the past eight years besides the number of unemployed/uninsured is our National Debt. And think about that National Debt for a minute, your guy doubled it in eight years. It took forty two presidents to accomplish what Bush did all by himself.
You claim the Military is the only successful government program, I would like to know what your criteria was when making that statement? When you say military, that is the DOD (department of defense), I challenge you to goggle DOD fraud, waste, and abuse, then come on back here and tell me what you were thinking when you wrote that.
No offense, but it seems like you just parrot MSM talking points. I don't see any substance to your point of view and its sad that you are trying to rewrite history concerning the bush administration. That was your guy, the compassionate conservative.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by rmyers

I challenge you or anyone on this forum to site a single government program or department except for the military that is run successfully.

IRS....

[War Eagle]

Just up this morning.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-aud...-14551924.html


Also this quote from another article

"GM said if it was unable to successfully reorganize and if debtor-in-possession financing was unavailable, it would be forced to liquidate under Chapter 7 of the U.S. bankruptcy code. For details see [ID:nN05319669]."
Steve