2018 Dodge Challenger T/A

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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IMO it is the design holding the Camaro back, it is not performance. Glaring problems mentioned in many reviews include lack of any functional back seat, poor visability, and a closed in feeling with the lower window sill being shoulder height. Its simply not a comfortable cruiser to anyone who isn't looking to go double the speed limit into an off ramp. If Chevy could improve on or fix these issues they would be selling 10k a month.

All those complaints existed with the 5th gen, which tended to outsell the Mustang and Challenger combined.

[rocket403]

Sure all those issues were there and then they made it smaller LOL can you really have a person with legs in the back seat behind the driver even if he is 5'6"

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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IMO it is the design holding the Camaro back, it is not performance. Glaring problems mentioned in many reviews include lack of any functional back seat, poor visability, and a closed in feeling with the lower window sill being shoulder height. Its simply not a comfortable cruiser to anyone who isn't looking to go double the speed limit into an off ramp. If Chevy could improve on or fix these issues they would be selling 10k a month.

There are issues with the design, for sure. To be honest, there are issues with the design of all three cars. However, all three cars are easily recognizable and are attractive to many people. Before Chevy moves on to a new design (and possibly end up spending a fortune in doing this), they need to resolve the issues with the marketing of their current Camaro. Chevy has been guilty of under-marketing the Camaro throughout its generations (I don't see many Camaro ads in the media), and I feel that they should make an aggressive campaign to advertise Camaro's features, appearance, and devise a better pricing structure for it. I can't believe that they would not be able to sell more Camaros with a smartly applied advertising campaign.

[Expunge]

The Challenger has its place.. in the rearview mirror when I pass them.

[rocket403]

Want to sell more Camaro's then what about having an another V8 option don't call it an SS maybe an option on the RS have a 5.3L-5.7L, Challenger has the R/T and for those people that want a V8 but don't have the 40-50K to put down on a SRT 392 then they are able to get into the market in the 30's doesn't need to be the fastest car.

[Expunge]

Because GM has 4 engine choices for the Camaro already. A 5th choice, the weaker V8 you suggest offers nothing but added cost and complexity.

If there is a 5th engine choice (3rd V8 choice) it will be in a Z/28, not a budget Camaro.

However, you do raise an excellent point about the cost of the 6th gen.

I have said from day 1 the 6th gen is overpriced with the exception of the ZL1. From the 5th gen 2013 models to the 6th gen 2017 models prices across the trim levels have gone up by an average of 20% if not more

5th gen v6 1LS: 22K - 6th gen v6 LS: 27K
5th gen 1SS: 31K - 6th gen 1SS: 38K
5th gen 2SS: 35K - 6th gen 2SS: 43K
*price does not include Dest fee.. and is subject to my foggy memory of 5 years ago.

Has that affected sales.. I believe yes as the sales numbers are clearly down from the 5th gen despite the 6th gen being an excellent upgrade over the 5th gen. Is there better fit and finish, absolutely.. but 20% worth... I leave that to others to decide.

Last, I will also point out that when Ford came out with their new Mustang in 2015 prices went up less than 3% overall.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Expunge

Because GM has 4 engine choices for the Camaro already. A 5th choice, the weaker V8 you suggest offers nothing but added cost and complexity.

If there is a 5th engine choice (3rd V8 choice) it will be in a Z/28, not a budget Camaro.

However, you do raise an excellent point about the cost of the 6th gen.

I have said from day 1 the 6th gen is overpriced with the exception of the ZL1. From the 5th gen 2013 models to the 6th gen 2017 models prices across the trim levels have gone up by an average of 20% if not more

5th gen v6 1LS: 22K - 6th gen v6 LS: 27K
5th gen 1SS: 31K - 6th gen 1SS: 38K
5th gen 2SS: 35K - 6th gen 2SS: 43K
*price does not include Dest fee.. and is subject to my foggy memory of 5 years ago.

Has that affected sales.. I believe yes as the sales numbers are clearly down from the 5th gen despite the 6th gen being an excellent upgrade over the 5th gen. Is there better fit and finish, absolutely.. but 20% worth... I leave that to others to decide.

Last, I will also point out that when Ford came out with their new Mustang in 2015 prices went up less than 3% overall.

Consider this... My 2016 2SS with A8, MRC, NPP, HUD and damn near every LPO option availably cost me $46.5 ...and that was when they first hit the street. Its faster than my 13 ZL1 M6 (proven) and is a much, much better car inside and out. It was a steal IMO especially when you compare its performance, content and price to the 13 ZL1.

Also. A SRT 392 starts at $50k and easily options to $54k. A GT PP has also jumped considerably for the 2018 performance improvements

[SS 1LE]

I've driven a few Challengers, they just "feel" big...I actually don't mind the size of them, if they "felt" smaller. What I mean by that is a large car doesn't have to feel large from behind the wheel, like a new Caddy CTS is a decent size car, but when driven, it doesn't feel like that. I actually like the Challengers looks since they did the refresh, and would probably of bought one if this was going to be my only car, as I can fit my daughter and other stuff in one easier. But since my Camaro is my weekend car, fun car, whatever you want to call it, I wanted something that not only felt smaller, but had lots of on track potential. A Challenger just doesn't offer that.

[rocket403]

Out of the Challenger V8's sold the largest seller is the 5.7L engine most people are looking for a V8 but not willing or can't cover the cost of the upgrade to the 6.4L or the 6.2L hellcat, with Chevy they dont have a dog in that race so if they had I'm sure that it would sell more Camaro's

[chain777]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

All those complaints existed with the 5th gen, which tended to outsell the Mustang and Challenger combined.

Really? The 5th gen barely outsold the S197, ending less than 5% ahead in sales in the end. It certainly wasn't outselling the Mustang and Challenger combined. It's nothing like the sales gap between the 6th gen Camaro and Mustang, or the Challenger basically even with the Camaro in this generation. Chevy made a big mistake styling the 6th gen so similar to the 5th with all the same packaging compromises. There was no runaway sales success with the 5th gen, it just barely outsold a 5 year year old platform after being gone for 7 years.

There is a reason that Chevy is scrambling to revive Camaro sales with de-contented cheaper models. They need to sell more Alphas to keep the line profitable. It doesn't matter what the ATP is if the volume isn't there. ATS and CTS are already dead. Where does that leave Camaro?

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

All those complaints existed with the 5th gen, which tended to outsell the Mustang and Challenger combined.

The 5th Gen sold well, but not that well.

[DGthe3]

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but I know that there were many months in the first ~5 years of production where the Camaro outdid both combined. Once the Mustang reached a new generation it didn't happen.

I know it wasn't every single month. And as I sit here thinking back, I doubt it was the majority. So I should have gone with better wording. Replace 'tended' with 'regularly' or 'sometimes' or something to that affect. My mistake.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by chain777

There is a reason that Chevy is scrambling to revive Camaro sales with de-contented cheaper models. They need to sell more Alphas to keep the line profitable. It doesn't matter what the ATP is if the volume isn't there. ATS and CTS are already dead. Where does that leave Camaro?

The ATS & CTS are getting replaced by something equivalent to the car that spawned both of them: the 'tweener' 2nd generation CTS. Hindsight being 20-20, it seems they should have just stuck with a smaller CTS and not made an ATS (or gone a size down pitting it against the BMW 1 & 2 series). GM gambled on a divide & conquer plan and it didn't pan out, so they're going back to what worked before.

Where does it leave the Camaro? Probably in a better place. The Camaro is partway between the size of an ATS & CTS as is. So if in a few years, there is a new RWD Cadillac between the size of the ATS & CTS it will be a no brainer to make a Camaro with that platform. And they won't have to develop 3 different size variations this time. At most it will be 2, and maybe even just 1.

As for transaction price not mattering if you don't have volume ... thats not true. Total profit is individual profit x volume. You need at least a bit of both. Ideally, you want both to be as big as possible. Thats obvious. But more often than not, in the auto industry its better to sell fewer cars at a higher margin than the opposite. Why do you think car lots are full of loaded top-trim models while base models are seemingly only found on the manufacturers website (or the local rental lot)

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Consider this... My 2016 2SS with A8, MRC, NPP, HUD and damn near every LPO option availably cost me $46.5 ...and that was when they first hit the street. Its faster than my 13 ZL1 M6 (proven) and is a much, much better car inside and out. It was a steal IMO especially when you compare its performance, content and price to the 13 ZL1.

Also. A SRT 392 starts at $50k and easily options to $54k. A GT PP has also jumped considerably for the 2018 performance improvements

Here's the thing none of the 3 cars sell anywhere near MSRP. However the mustang and challenger in particular have various trims that allow the price to be marketed better and get people in the door.

90% of the people out there don't negotiate the way many do on this site or even realize what they sell for. Frankly Chevy is making a mistake selling these cars so far under MSRP. They would be better lowering MSRP and just discounting less.

SRT 392 is one of the least sold models. The other models base msrp start much lower which gets people looking at these cars. Chevy really needs to give some thought to their marketing strategy. Also don't underestimate what the Hellcat did for Dodge on marketing for the general public. There is a reason challenger sales improved around the time of that release - hence the new demon....

What will be very telling for Chevy is to watch the impact of the 2018 Mustang. If the big price increase hurts Ford sales we will all have some better direction on the marketplace.