More Ethanol Debate

[chadrcr]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

2: True. but if it's cheap enough to make up the difference...who cares? 1 gallon of gasoline gives you about 1.35 gallons of E85 worth of mileage, right? So...if the E85 is $2.00 a gallon (double what some companies expect to produce it for), and gas is $4.00 a gallon (and rising...), then you have to pay $2.70 to go the same distance on E85 as you would on $4.00 of gasoline. You see that as a problem?

How solid are those #s?

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I happen to ONLY use 10% ethanol fuel. I've done the comparisons with using non-blended fuels.....and the blended stuff is actually giving me better milage in my Cobalt than regular fuel. Don't ask me to explain why, because I can't -- all I know, is that it does. And these evil gas stations are selling gas for at least .10 cheaper than those who don't blend their fuels. AND, whatever you think of the fuel, I am guaranteed that 10% of my money is not going overseas to the oil sheiks. I'll keep my E10, thank you very much!

Are they testing other blends? E35? E5150?

[Mr. Wyndham]

The energy deficit ethanol suffers compared to gasoline is is about 75%. That is, one unit of ethanol hold approxomately 75% of the energy of the same unit of gasoline. I could find you a link if you really want one...

But ethanol has a higher octane rating (near 103-105), and in the future when/if engines are designed to maximize ethanol burning and not gasoline, this could possibly be expolited to more efficiently extract that energy; narrowing the mileage gap it suffers compared to gas.

$4.00+ gas is pretty solid , and Coskata and other cellulosic ethanol companies expect to be able to produce ethanol for as little as $1.00 a gallon. I doubled it to eliminate any arguments about cost of production v. resale and taxes, etc...but you get the jist of it.

They ARE testing different blends, and it turns out that certain "mid-range" blends like E35, yields consistant mileage improvements compared to pure gasoline, which is exciting! (can't find the darn link--I know it's on the site somewhere....)

[chadrcr]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The energy deficit ethanol suffers compared to gasoline is is about 75%. That is, one unit of ethanol hold approxomately 75% of the energy of the same unit of gasoline. I could find you a link if you really want one...

But ethanol has a higher octane rating (near 103-105), and in the future when/if engines are designed to maximize ethanol burning and not gasoline, this could possibly be expolited to more efficiently extract that energy; narrowing the mileage gap it suffers compared to gas.

$4.00+ gas is pretty solid , and Coskata and other cellulosic ethanol companies expect to be able to produce ethanol for as little as $1.00 a gallon. I doubled it to eliminate any arguments about cost of production v. resale and taxes, etc...but you get the jist of it.

They ARE testing different blends, and it turns out that certain "mid-range" blends like E35, yields consistant mileage improvements compared to pure gasoline, which is exciting! (can't find the darn link--I know it's on the site somewhere....)

The '06 Sierra had a week of alcohol consumption.... 1 week in Missouri/Iowa in 06, the computer slurred a little when telling me it was getting 30% less mpg... the E85 was $2.25 while the E10 was $2.75; I only got a B in college algebra, but those #s are good enuff for me. Just to know that A big % of my $$$ were going to American farmers, instead of straight to opec.....
Unfortunately I have not seen another E85 station in almost 2 years... 9 states. :(

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What by your definition is "True Ethanol"? There's only one kind of ethanol. It's the process by which it's made that is different. But one process is no "truer" than the other. So the reason you said this eludes me. But on to your points: . . .

Agree 100%. On #4, there is also the cost of oil based pesticides that are becoming alot more expensive. Thats what my uncles (farmers) are complaining about, not the price of fuel but the price of the pesticides that they need to keep their crops at maximum yeild.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Twins

True ethanol is crappy... 1 more CO and CO2 emissions, CO being toxic, 2 less gas mileage, 3 dependent on weather conditions, 4 price of food is already going up and if ethanol went into mainstream production food would cost an arm and a leg... the list goes on fellas ethanol is only a quick fix to gas not a long term replacement.. i think as a whole everyone should boycott gas stations that use 10% ethanol and ethanol stations all together i already do

wow.... could you please show some sources as to where you heard this BS?

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What by your definition is "True Ethanol"? There's only one kind of ethanol. It's the process by which it's made that is different. But one process is no "truer" than the other. So the reason you said this eludes me. But on to your points:

1: There are NOT more CO2 emissions. multiple studies have shown that corn based ethanol delievers a maximum of 30% reduction in emissions compared to gasoline. Yet more studies have shown that switchgrass, or any other cellulosic-based ethanol can yeild up to an 80% reduction in GHG emissions. Either way you cut it, there is a reduction.
pretty much sums it up
2: True. but if it's cheap enough to make up the difference...who cares? 1 gallon of gasoline gives you about 1.35 gallons of E85 worth of mileage, right? So...if the E85 is $2.00 a gallon (double what some companies expect to produce it for), and gas is $4.00 a gallon (and rising...), then you have to pay $2.70 to go the same distance on E85 as you would on $4.00 of gasoline. You see that as a problem?
exactly,while it isnt as potent as regular gasoline, it can be made to
3: Switchgrass and waste can grow anywhere under most any conditions with little to no fertilizer or pesticides, but other than that, I cede this point: corn is dependeant on seasonal trends, like any other crop.
corn is dependent on seasonal trends....which is why Brazil is whooping ass with sugarcane ethanol production. they can produce sugar nearly 90% of the year
4: False, false and false. Even the guys at the UN, who seem to hate Ethanol because of this unfounded reason, are stating that ethanol production has had a maximum impact of 3% increase in food prices. Out of the 40-some percent increase that's being experienced right now. Food prices are going up around the world mainly due to three things:

• The crop-yeilds due to bad seasons are down slightly
• Have you been to the gas station lately? Prices are WAY up, yeah -- the truckers have to pay more, too.
• There are more mouths to feed, and they want to be fed more than ever before because of the same reason fuel is going up. third-world nations are starting to thrive, and grow. That means they can afford to eat more, and are doing it.

Please, continue your list.
the main reason that crop prices are rising is because farmers have had to "set aside" acres of farmland to use for other crops than what they were originally intended. for instance, US bumping up production of corn to be used to create ethanol means less room for soy production, which means the US has to import more and more instead of just buying sugarcan ethanol from brazil like they should

It's a quick fix allright, no disagreements there, but we need it badly -- would you disagree? And eventually, as the transportaion-fuel landscape changes, ethanol may become a big player in a very diverse arena of fuels.

I happen to ONLY use 10% ethanol fuel. I've done the comparisons with using non-blended fuels.....and the blended stuff is actually giving me better milage in my Cobalt than regular fuel. Don't ask me to explain why, because I can't -- all I know, is that it does. And these evil gas stations are selling gas for at least .10 cheaper than those who don't blend their fuels. AND, whatever you think of the fuel, I am guaranteed that 10% of my money is not going overseas to the oil sheiks. I'll keep my E10, thank you very much!

as previously stated, some benefits of ethanol are higher octane ratings and cooler operating temps, mixing/blending it in more and more will net you improved performance

Originally Posted by chadrcr

How solid are those #s?

Are they testing other blends? E35? E5150?

the price numbers will vary, but they will be considerably cheaper than regular gasoline. and yes they are working on new blends, brazil has been using a e24 (gasohol) tho the majority of its cars run off 100% ethanol. its actually not that hard to completely convert to ethanol

[CamaroSpike23]

and you might all enjoy a little history lesson. Henry Ford origionally designed the model T to run on ethanol due to its productability. however, he was "pushed" to gasoline due to the steadily lowering costs of gasoline and later the introduction of prohibition.
he onced remarked that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" .

funny thing tho.... Ford was anti-semitic and a nazi sympathizer. its funny cus he is revered as one of americas greatest minds.