GM'S new Alpha Platform under difficulties!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

times 10,000.................


Let me assure everyone that neither of those gentlemen were in any of our planning meetings.

Much ado about nothing.

Every program has its challenges, but this article is just way off...........

Thanks for the reassurance, Fbodfather.

Really...if you read it (I mean actually READ it)...there's very little consistency or value to that "article". A couple of 'sources' who could be anything from the cleaning staff to imaginary friends...and some clearly made-up or criss-crossed facts and assumptions.

Seeing that the supposed Cadillac is still expected years away (According to multiple websites...)...it doesn't make much sense that anyone would get upset or write-off the company/car/platform over this silly writeup.

Originally Posted by SlingShot

I say bring back the Kappa platform ...

You mean the one that nearly cost more to make than it sold for? The tiny roadster with a 4-cylinder that weighed nearly as much as a Corvette with a V8?

Originally Posted by toesuf94

If the RUMOR on the INTERNET is not signed JOE X, GM Engineering Tech Guru Extraordinaire... IGNORE IT!

This same information applies to the following auto manufacturers:

ALL OF THEM.

That is all.

GREAT Advice!!

Originally Posted by Number 3

There is more mis and incorrect information in that article than any I've seen in quite a while.

Apparently "6 or 7 insiders" each giving just a bit of wrong information adds up to total credibility.

I call material that comes from the back end of a male cow.

More than usual??? From you that's saying A LOT.

And very eloquently stated!

[AZCamaroFan]

How big a problem they're having with it only they know, but obviously weight has been a big problem since the 70s. The current Camaro and CTS are about 4,000 pounds, and they're on different platfroms. So it's not just that Zeta is heavy. But with fuel economy and performance these days, i'm sure weight is the biggest challenge for all manufacturers.

[anthonyj9h]

weight is the biggest challenge its also the answer to part of the equation of fuel consumption

[1o.f00t.570rk]

I think we need more forged composites, which are processed kinda like a hybrid between injection molding and forging.

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/what-...-carbon-fiber/

That would help reduce weight and it would be cheaper (in the long run) than doing the commonly seen laid-up sheets. It's also not as strong as the woven sheets, but it's not got the same directional weakness.

When we see stuff like this being used more often, we'll see radical drops in the weight, and in turn the requirements in power and displacement would also drop.

[anthonyj9h]

Originally Posted by 1o.f00t.570rk

I think we need more forged composites, which are processed kinda like a hybrid between injection molding and forging.

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/what-...-carbon-fiber/

That would help reduce weight and it would be cheaper (in the long run) than doing the commonly seen laid-up sheets. It's also not as strong as the woven sheets, but it's not got the same directional weakness.

When we see stuff like this being used more often, we'll see radical drops in the weight, and in turn the requirements in power and displacement would also drop.

now the question is how it handles in a impact situation

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 1o.f00t.570rk

I think we need more forged composites, which are processed kinda like a hybrid between injection molding and forging.

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/what-...-carbon-fiber/

That would help reduce weight and it would be cheaper (in the long run) than doing the commonly seen laid-up sheets. It's also not as strong as the woven sheets, but it's not got the same directional weakness.

When we see stuff like this being used more often, we'll see radical drops in the weight, and in turn the requirements in power and displacement would also drop.

We did something similar in the Z06 floor panel. We simply replaced the SMC sheet with a sheet of chopped CF. The Viper was using this as well. It essentially offers the mass savings over even SMC, but works in less structural applications. The long strands in traditional CF is really what gives it the strength.

Calling it "forged" may be a bit of a stretch. Forged is essentially impact forming where I think what is described is essentially still just a formed part, but likely press formed is a better description.

CF has 2 major drawbacks, one being cost of the material the other is cycle time. Some traditional CF parts need to be cured in a kiln with heat and pressure. And those are some long cycle times. So you are really limited to low volume runs, unless you can afford multiple toos which jacks up your investment cost and completely changes your business case. So it lends itself to low volume high priced vehicles like the Lambo and even the Z06.

There are a lot of companies working to address the issues with CF cost, but it remains significantly expensive even in the lower cost variants. I think in the future you'll see more widespread use, but for that to happen, you'll need a substantial technology leap to get the costs down.

[1o.f00t.570rk]

So the cycle time is addressed by this being glorified injection molding, only instead of using a complete liquid it's more of a slurry with both resin and fibers at the same time. With costs, you have a mold and the process can be automated, unlike much of what is done with traditional methods.

As far as collisions, this will be the biggest issue. While performance and efficiency are greatly assisted by reducing weight, due to the significant variance in vehicles on the road (popularity of SUVs and trucks), it would take a huge shift in mentality before people would accept them. To compensate, the cars would have to be designed with impact - not creature comforts - in mind...something that would prevent them from selling well among the common consumer.

When car companies have to worry about the number of cup holders and designing the hood of a car for pedestrian impacts, it will be a long time before they can look to alternative materials for any significant amount of a vehicle that is intended to be mass-produced.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 1o.f00t.570rk

So the cycle time is addressed by this being glorified injection molding, only instead of using a complete liquid it's more of a slurry with both resin and fibers at the same time. With costs, you have a mold and the process can be automated, unlike much of what is done with traditional methods.

As far as collisions, this will be the biggest issue. While performance and efficiency are greatly assisted by reducing weight, due to the significant variance in vehicles on the road (popularity of SUVs and trucks), it would take a huge shift in mentality before people would accept them. To compensate, the cars would have to be designed with impact - not creature comforts - in mind...something that would prevent them from selling well among the common consumer.

When car companies have to worry about the number of cup holders and designing the hood of a car for pedestrian impacts, it will be a long time before they can look to alternative materials for any significant amount of a vehicle that is intended to be mass-produced.

Ohhhh, it won't be long..................it's NOW. Mass savings is so important to FE and CO2. The minute this becomes cost effective you'll see it in a Cruz and Sonic. Today it's not there yet.

Also, to manage crash energy you somewhat need the material to yield. A very stiff part that "snaps" isn't good for riding down a crash. So using it in major structural areas is a different engineering question than just mass reduction.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ohhhh, it won't be long..................it's NOW. Mass savings is so important to FE and CO2. The minute this becomes cost effective you'll see it in a Cruz and Sonic. Today it's not there yet.

Also, to manage crash energy you somewhat need the material to yield. A very stiff part that "snaps" isn't good for riding down a crash. So using it in major structural areas is a different engineering question than just mass reduction.

Why are composite body panels (fiberglass, etc) not being used as widespread as I'd have thought?

Corvette uses them. But why did the Camaro drop them, and the later-model Saturns? Is the material that expensive?

[swagled]

This is starting to sound like the knuckle-chewing design decisions of the late 1980s again. Ford dithered for years whether to put the Mustang on the Thunderbird chassis, but it was too heavy so they ultimately stuck with the Fox body once more. Chevrolet likewise punted their platform decision into the early 1990s and ultimately re-used the F body. I remember the auto mags expressing very quizical reactions to both decisions. The writers like to talk about something "new", not something "re-booted."

I generally agree though that if the engineers are given a chance to re-think Zeta, that some weight savings could be found.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Why are composite body panels (fiberglass, etc) not being used as widespread as I'd have thought?

Corvette uses them. But why did the Camaro drop them, and the later-model Saturns? Is the material that expensive?

One of the biggest problems with using composite (RIM) body panels is thermal expansion. The body gaps have to be huge (6 mm on Saturns to account for door and fender expansion. So it can lead to some pretty nasty looking panel fits. And yes, it is more expensive than just stamping steel panels. I remember a number, can't verify it other than memory, but the Saturn ION was at an $800 piece cost disadvantage per car. The plus was dent resistant, rust resistant panels. But if the customer isn't willing to pay you more for that than your competition, it's not a very good business to be in. Same deal on the composite pickup box Chevrolet offered a few years ago. Dent and rust resistance in a pickup box seems like a really good thing. But as I recall it was a $600 option that no one would pay for.

The advantage of composite is generally less costly tooling which helps in low volumes.

[talwell]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

times 10,000.................


Let me assure everyone that neither of those gentlemen were in any of our planning meetings.

Much ado about nothing.

Every program has its challenges, but this article is just way off...........

Good to hear from an insider Scott. I am sure that GM is on top of it as they have proven themselves for decades with the last few years I think being some of the best in the history of GM.

The ZL1 I think will silence alot of critics - they will see what GM is really capable of.

[Caliman93230]

with the zeta platform the camaro took a step backwards, i would like to know who was responsible for making the camaro such at fat ass, i would like to do this to him :fighting00 72::slice:, but seriously weight is a big issue in all aspects of fuel economy, performance, peoples buying preferences. next guy how facks up the camaro will be tarred feathered and hanged by the cojones

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Caliman93230

with the zeta platform the camaro took a step backwards, i would like to know who was responsible for making the camaro such at fat ass, i would like to do this to him :fighting00 72::slice:, but seriously weight is a big issue in all aspects of fuel economy, performance, peoples buying preferences. next guy how facks up the camaro will be tarred feathered and hanged by the cojones

If the weight of the Camaro is so terrible, why did you buy one?