Toyota plant workers make case for unionization

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by Eisenhower

Fine... maybe that's overkill. The R/T's are plenty sufficient and they start at 31k

Charger R/Ts are close, but don't quite cut it unless the Mustang GT is caught sleeping.

While the Charger R/T and Mustang GT have a nearly identical power-to-weight ratios (R/T has more horses but weighs more). The big thing holding the R/T back is its rear end gearing, and that they only come as automatics.

The R/Ts are given a 3.07:1 rear end ratio from the factory.

The 05-06 Mustangs have a 3.55:1 rear end ratio while the 07-08s have a 3.31:1 ratio with an option for the 3.55:1.

Comparing a 3.55:1 rear end to a 3.07:1 makes a big difference in acceleration between two cars that otherwise have the same power-to-weight ratio.

A higher stall torque converter and some steeper gearing would go a long way in putting a Charger R/T deep in to the 13s in the quarter. Stock they are about a 14 flat.

[Eisenhower]

Hmm, that's interesting. I know they're automatics, but don't they use an "auto-stick"? Or is that a watered down vr. of a manual transmission? Maybe you're right about the power to weight ratio because I saw a Magnum R/T get clobbered by an '04 GTO.

[Mr. Wyndham]

auto-stick is pretty much Dodge's version of the paddle shifting, except it's integrated into the shifter by ways of a "+" selection and "-" selection: upshift, and downshift respectively. But it's not very responsive from what I hear, and has more use for passing people on the highway than anything else...

As for final gear ratios...I've got a general question: Does it matter
what the final ratio is as long as the gearing itself is matched to it, i.e. steep gearing for not-so-steep FDR?

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

As for final gear ratios...I've got a general question: Does it matter
what the final ratio is as long as the gearing itself is matched to it, i.e. steep gearing for not-so-steep FDR?

Final gearing is very important for straight line acceleration, and acceleration in general.

The gear ratios in the transmission are very important to consider as well, but final drive ratios can't be discounted. When a FDR is chosen for a particular transmission, things like gas mileage, drivetrain wear, engine wear, traction are all taken into consideration. Also most cars are geared so that you hit 60 mph at or near the top of 2nd gear.....why that is, is an entirely different discussion though. Anyway the transmission, along with the engines redline, are all considerations for chosing a FDR, but again the factory choice is based more on balance than performance.

Aside from all the factory considerations, if you take any two identical vehicles and gear one lower....for example a car with 3.27s vs the same car that was given 3.73s.......from a dig the 3.73 will ALWAYS accelerate harder and faster than the 3.27 all the way up to the engines redline in its final gear (assuming traction and equal drivers).

Some cars have super steep 1st gear ratios so the factory can provide off-the-line acceleration yet keep the FDR low for gas mileage when cruising in the overdrive gears. German cars, especially BMWs are great examples of this type of gearing. Again that is strategy for coming up with a balanced factory car. Take that same BMW and throw in a steeper final drive ratio and it will be faster than before.

But no matter how you slice it, a steeper FDR will make any car accelerate faster and harder. The draw back being that you will have a loss in the cars ultimate top speed, gas mileage, and general wear. Most of the time that top speed isn't a real factor, because the loss of top speed is usually out of the realm of practicality. For instance with a set of new gears in your car, you might be theoretically limited to 180 mph instead of 200 mph.

As with my point about the Mustang GT and the Charger R/T, not only do they have nearly the same power-to-weight ratio, they have the same redline, and they both have 5 speed transmissions with very similar ratios throughout. Again the biggest difference between the R/T and the GT are those final drive ratios, and why the Mustang is typically faster.

Also there are practical limits to going towards a steeper final drive ratio as well. A jump from a factory 3.27 to a 3.73 or a 4.10 would give you a nice noticeable boost in performance and wouldn't really affect your daily driving.

However if you went overboard and threw in some 4.88s as your FDR, you might have an awesome car that runs well in the 1/8th mile but streetability would definitely be down.

Finally, if drag racing is your thing, you want a gear that is steep enough for good acceleration, but tall enough so you are still hitting the traps at or near the top of 4th gear. If you hit the traps in overdrive, your gearing is too steep.

[Mr. Wyndham]

The only reason I asked, is because I've got this racing simulator game...stop laughing...that allows you to change the Gear ratios of every gear in the tranny.

I know the automatic gets a different ratio setup in the Vette, but in the game I bought a C6 Corvette, kept it stock and changed the gear ratios to the Auto setup, with the 2.56 FDR, and the 4.02 first gear - and then I switched it back to the manual, 3.65 or something FDR, and 2.66 first gear.
The simulator calculated the same zero-60 and 1/4 mile numbers for both.

I feel you when you say that on the same tranny a steeper FDR will increase performance, but if it's NOT the same tranny, and it was matched up to the FDR - like I did in the game - does it matter?

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The only reason I asked, is because I've got this racing simulator game...stop laughing...that allows you to change the Gear ratios of every gear in the tranny.

I know the automatic gets a different ratio setup in the Vette, but in the game I bought a C6 Corvette, kept it stock and changed the gear ratios to the Auto setup, with the 2.56 FDR, and the 4.02 first gear - and then I switched it back to the manual, 3.65 or something FDR, and 2.66 first gear.
The simulator calculated the same zero-60 and 1/4 mile numbers for both.

I feel you when you say that on the same tranny a steeper FDR will increase performance, but if it's NOT the same tranny, and it was matched up to the FDR - like I did in the game - does it matter?

Actually in that example those two examples are very close and will likely end up with similar times.

The 2.56 FDR and the 4.02 1st Gear will give you an overall ratio of 10.29 (all you do is multiply them together)

The 3.65 FDR and the 2.66 1st gear will give you an overall ratio of 9.71.

Those are pretty close, and depending on the remaining gear ratios it isn't surprising to end up with the same or similar 1/4mile time.

Now if you took the automatic setup with the 4.02 1st Gear and gave it the 3.65 FDR from the manual...then your overall gearing in 1st would be 14.67 and you would have a lot more torque multiplication.

Which could also cause some traction problems, but aside from that the acceleration should be greater.


Basically you really have to look at the overall ratio, like I did in the examples. The higher the overall ratio, the higher the torque multiplication to the ground. You are right though, different trannys will make a big difference in how the FDR will affect it. So it isn't completely fair to compare just the FDRs.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Well, thanks! this conversation was enlightening, I can say I've learned something!

[KILLER74Z28]

Originally Posted by Rock36

Final gearing is very important for straight line acceleration, and acceleration in general.

The gear ratios in the transmission are very important to consider as well, but final drive ratios can't be discounted. When a FDR is chosen for a particular transmission, things like gas mileage, drivetrain wear, engine wear, traction are all taken into consideration. Also most cars are geared so that you hit 60 mph at or near the top of 2nd gear.....why that is, is an entirely different discussion though. Anyway the transmission, along with the engines redline, are all considerations for chosing a FDR, but again the factory choice is based more on balance than performance.

Aside from all the factory considerations, if you take any two identical vehicles and gear one lower....for example a car with 3.27s vs the same car that was given 3.73s.......from a dig the 3.73 will ALWAYS accelerate harder and faster than the 3.27 all the way up to the engines redline in its final gear (assuming traction and equal drivers).

Some cars have super steep 1st gear ratios so the factory can provide off-the-line acceleration yet keep the FDR low for gas mileage when cruising in the overdrive gears. German cars, especially BMWs are great examples of this type of gearing. Again that is strategy for coming up with a balanced factory car. Take that same BMW and throw in a steeper final drive ratio and it will be faster than before.

But no matter how you slice it, a steeper FDR will make any car accelerate faster and harder. The draw back being that you will have a loss in the cars ultimate top speed, gas mileage, and general wear. Most of the time that top speed isn't a real factor, because the loss of top speed is usually out of the realm of practicality. For instance with a set of new gears in your car, you might be theoretically limited to 180 mph instead of 200 mph.

As with my point about the Mustang GT and the Charger R/T, not only do they have nearly the same power-to-weight ratio, they have the same redline, and they both have 5 speed transmissions with very similar ratios throughout. Again the biggest difference between the R/T and the GT are those final drive ratios, and why the Mustang is typically faster.

Also there are practical limits to going towards a steeper final drive ratio as well. A jump from a factory 3.27 to a 3.73 or a 4.10 would give you a nice noticeable boost in performance and wouldn't really affect your daily driving.

However if you went overboard and threw in some 4.88s as your FDR, you might have an awesome car that runs well in the 1/8th mile but streetability would definitely be down.

Finally, if drag racing is your thing, you want a gear that is steep enough for good acceleration, but tall enough so you are still hitting the traps at or near the top of 4th gear. If you hit the traps in overdrive, your gearing is too steep.

Good points, but don’t forget to throw tire size into the factor.

[Mr. Wyndham]

right...throw 32's out back and you could have an overall ratio of 1, and you'll burn the compeition...maybe for real, too...that's a lot of rubber LOL

[marcajrfan]

i'm pro union! and if everybody got a fair wage and health benifits more people could afford new cars,washerss,dryers ect. i'm a butcher i make 27.64hr work 8rh days and get time and a half on sunday,10 sick days,5 personal holidays and 4 weeks vacation. try getting that at walmart or down south when the union was strong people got treated better and made a better living and wifes where at home raising the kids insted of tv. will never work non union again

[stovt001]

Except then all those lavish union benefits kill productivity, bleed the company's finances, and then they realize it is cheaper to just shift the jobs overseas, or they go bankrupt. But other than completely destroying the economy sure, unions are great!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Keep it nice.........



(of all threads to resurrect...)

[stovt001]

Sorry, it just rubs me wrong a little. A union the company I work for deals with won't even let its members vote on a new contract. The company offered all sorts of improvements over the current contract from the start, and since that makes the union look less than absolutely vital, they refuse to hold meetings or a vote. Instead they keep getting union members, many working for other companies, to come on property, disrupt our guests, and make a mess of things just so the union members think they still need them. Disgusting.

[DkknightX]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I can tell what's american, and what's not. DESIGN. GM designed the camaro, and all their other cars. MOST of their parts are built here, and MOST, if not all profits come back to their Hq in detroit. Regardless of where it's built, it's american still - what the future holds, well....

Actually Dragon, isn't it true the designer of the 5th gen Camaro was Korean?


If I'm wrong, WOW am I an idiot! Hahahaha!