2013 Mustang GT500 MEGA THREAD - Page 218

Blue Maro Demon · 06-22-2012, 11:10 PM

Automobilemag.com have the other two parts of their review up while the GT500 won the quarter mile drag strip run like we knew it would they seem to prefer the ZL1 overall since it is a more well rounded car. Seems the GT500 is only good for the drag strip they give the nod to the Camaro ZL1 for track, and daily day to day use heres what they said at the end of their review. Its a shame if the Camaro didnt have all the weight and just a little more power it would have easily won the overall test at the drag strip.

The GT500 will likely still win buyers over looking for the meanest, most brutal muscle car available from the factory. The power is insane, the look is intoxicating, and as we've found, the 662 hp on tap (along with launch control) makes it one of the quickest factory-built muscle cars. If quarter-mile times, a 200-mph top speed, horsepower bragging rights, and a raw, muscle-bound feel are what you seek in a muscle car, the GT500 is far and away your dream machine.

That said, the Camaro ZL1 objectively feels like the all-around victor. Despite its 82-hp and 268-pound disadvantage, it managed to set outstanding times on a road course, impressive times at the strip, and feels far more genteel and tractable on a daily basis. It may aim at the same customer demographic as the GT500, and share a similar powertrain configuration and price tag, but drive the two back to back, and they hardly feel as if they're direct competitors. The ZL1's well-rounded behavior, both on and off the track, and respectable performance numbers earn it a victory - though it may well be short lived. Ford is hard at work on a new Mustang that finally gains independent rear suspension. We know little about that car, but it should be obvious to all that the pony car wars are far from reaching a cease-fire.

eolson · 06-22-2012, 11:36 PM

truth11, I think you are dead wrong about the Automobile Article about the run at Gingerman.

The driver is admitting he only counted or ran one run for each car. He admits that he could not configure his shifting properly with the GT500s tall gears for the course for optimal speed.

If you speak with Gingerman veterans, this was HIS problem with the car, not every good drivers. His driving the taller gears could be accomplished better by someone who knows how to drive taller gears better than him on a course of that type. He does not count his own limitations with the gearing as a possible reason for slower times as he did with HIS problem with mis-shifting the ZR1. Your assumption he would have had better time if... was not based on repeated proven runs that he reported on.

What it comes off sounding like is open ended issues with HIS driving of these cars that caused his own admission to variables that could have concluded differently in lap times given multiple runs. Un like Randy Pobst who actually takes many practice runs with each car and does not place lower or higher values of time on single events with the tests.

Clearly the ZL1 out cornered the Boss LG on the Randy Pobst comparison last fall. Pobst admitted that he was less confident with the Boss to run it over the rougher curbs of the track to gain time as he did in the ZL1. This statement clearly indicates that he did not drive the Boss LG over the curbs as hard as he did with the ZL1.This fact and weaker braking limited the Boss LS's time according to Pobst. The GT500 has the better brakes, so what real % slower is it than the ZL1 on courses?

My point is that even though the ZL1 suspension is more sophisticated than the Boss or GT500, and the ZL1 could be run over curbs as at the Nurburgring, and in the Boss LG/ZL1 test because it does have a more confidence inspiring suspension, that does not preclude the Boss LS or the GT500 to be pushed through these elements by drivers that are accustomed to the scarier ride in the Mustang, as it is in competitions all over the country.

The Automobile Mag test article did not systematically test numbers and times from multiple runs and different techniques of driving, as would be the case with individuals acclimating to a particular car. The driver came off sounding fairly clueless of how to tame each negative encountered in both cars.

He clearly stated any negatives for the ZL1 were flukes on his part, but the negatives were all inherent and unsolvable for the GT500. It was very biased. His assertions of a boatload of sway have not been reported from other tests, so it will be interesting to hear objective track tests from C&D, R&T, and MT.

I will be happy to concede the ZL1 is a more sophisticated and mathematically faster corner carver than the GT500 or the Boss LS, but as to by how much, I need to see multiple runs done with multiple techniques by unafraid drivers who honestly attempt to adapt to either car's realities, and not bitch about them from single runs, but actually try to adapt as any consumer would. Those numbers will then stand clear.

I can test drive both of these cars to see how comfy they are, or how they handle in aggressive street situations. Let's see the numbers like in the Edmunds report and from the multiple runs at the drag strip all over the country. Multiple passes on road courses with good drivers and lap times that are not contingent on complaining about what went wrong. Then I'll be happy to accept the real % faster the ZL1 is over the GT500 is on average around the twisties. Erik

72MachOne99GT · 06-23-2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eolson

...

I will be happy to concede the ZL1 is a more sophisticated and mathematically faster corner carver than the GT500 or the Boss LS, but as to by how much, I need to see multiple runs done with multiple techniques by unafraid drivers who honestly attempt to adapt to either car's realities, and not bitch about them from single runs, but actually try to adapt as any consumer would. Those numbers will then stand clear.

...

Would you concede that a poor, average, and great driver is more likely to get better times 'just hopping behind the wheel' of the ZL1 99% than they are when doing the same in the GT500?

tt335ci03cobra · 06-23-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

Would you concede that a poor, average, and great driver is more likely to get better times 'just hopping behind the wheel' of the ZL1 99% than they are when doing the same in the GT500?

Not 99% but in general ya. I'd say 70/30

Take a driver thats average but knows sra's dynamics from some seat time on track and the gap won't be all that much at all.

Sra's get a bad wrap because they require different methods vs irs setups. They need more of a bullish Parnelli Jones approach vs a smooth Mario Andretti approach. Unsprung weight needs motivation to move or it'll bog and understeer. All said and done, both ways work, and neither is the best approach at all times.

An amateur scca aix driver is probably faster with the gt500 because they're used to sra and that dynamic.

An amateur miata club racer is probably faster in the zl1 because they're used to finesse and precise handling. Though the zl1 lakes an sla front suspension, compared to a miata, the mr goes a long way toward great handling.

A pro of most genres should be faster in the gt500, a novice will undoubtedly be faster in the zl1.

LOWDOWN · 06-23-2012, 01:28 PM

A ZL1 can be "road raced"...finessed...IRS and MRC and bigger rubber...and 52/48 distribution.

A GT500 has to be "drifted"...power oversteer...which is a factor of excessive power, too little mechanical grip, 3-link SRA...and 57/43 non-distribution...

The GT500 actually carries MORE WEIGHT on its smaller front tires than the much heavier (overall) ZL1.

Having gobs of power, in this environment, only works effectively when all that power can be effectively applied...and turned...

Pro Tour vs. Pro Street.

eolson · 06-23-2012, 08:29 PM

Well, looking at it that way, I'm becoming very happy with my 06' again, since my weight loss program, even with my Saleen SC, I've got my front/rear weight ratio a 1/2 % better than my stock 52%/48% to make it 51.5% front/48.5%rear, and my total weight is down to 3475 lbs.

Maybe for 2015, Ford will actually have the GT500 weight distribution and handling on par with the fantastic power, brakes, and aerodynamics. Here's hoping, Erik

TheReaper · 06-24-2012, 12:03 AM

Well lets put the same size tires on both cars and see how well they track.

72MachOne99GT · 06-24-2012, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReaper

Well lets put the same size tires on both cars and see how well they track.

We could do that, but it would have NO bearing at all on stock performance.

tt335ci03cobra · 06-24-2012, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

A ZL1 can be "road raced"...finessed...IRS and MRC and bigger rubber...and 52/48 distribution.

A GT500 has to be "drifted"...power oversteer...which is a factor of excessive power, too little mechanical grip, 3-link SRA...and 57/43 non-distribution...

The GT500 actually carries MORE WEIGHT on its smaller front tires than the much heavier (overall) ZL1.

Having gobs of power, in this environment, only works effectively when all that power can be effectively applied...and turned...

Pro Tour vs. Pro Street.

It has nothing to do with being drifted. It has to be set into a groove with firm force because the sra is fully connected and as such has a much higher resistance to transitional inertia unlike IRS setups which have many interconnected parts and have much less resistance to transitional inertia because it's individual pieces are each much lighter than the fully connect sra setup. Though the sra in its entirety isighter than the IRS, since it is one fully connected unit, it resists transition more so than the wishbones of an IRS which are much lighter than an entire sra.

The gobs of power it has get down just fine when driven with respect to it being an sra.

These arguments are old and played out. Yes the zl1 handles and feels much more controllable but the reality is that both cars are very capable grip cars given proper drivers.

The easier car to drive will feel better than the car you have to learn to drive.

tt335ci03cobra · 06-24-2012, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReaper

Well lets put the same size tires on both cars and see how well they track.

It's little to do with tires, he forgot the actual gearing is much different which allows the gt500 to get its power down fine. Don't buy into the myth about tire width either. 20mm out of 285mm is a smaller percent than 325lbs out of 4150.

The real problem is in the rear
suspension geometry on the gt500. A wats or 4 link would make it much more confidence inspiring.

Cheers.

eolson · 06-24-2012, 07:11 AM

That's how I have felt through all these discussions. If you listened to the many racers and suspension engineers that occasionally chimed in, they pretty much said the same thing.

A) The Boss LS's X brace solves the Monocoque problem of the rear inner tire lifting in hard turns with a fixed axel. SVT chose not to attempt a rear seat under/behind brace, or an actual option for the X brace as the Boss versions have.

B) A durable Watts Link solution would remove most all lateral movement on dips and bumps the current set up has with the pan hard bar and the chassis sliding left in dips.

C) Using more tubular poly chromide and carbon fiber elements to take weight off the front of the car, and try to get to a 53%/47% front/rear weight distribution.

I would have personally preferred if the 5.4 engine of the GT500 was simply supported to be brought to 12 psi for 600 HP, with the larger heat exchanger, and the rest of the money be put into the above items A, B, and C.

Still would have the better brakes, and still would have the great aero dynamic improvements, but be a better all around car.

I couldn't agree more about your comments that the GT500 is a car that takes some learning to drive well, which is the whole point. Like the GTR, the ZL1 is wonderfully engineered for the average person to drive well easily. We all knew this to be the case, I would simply like to see the GT500 driven to it's max potential to see it's numbers along side the ZL1, not driven half assed by drivers that clearly don't like Mustangs' Erik

LOWDOWN · 06-24-2012, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

Yes the ZL1 handles and feels much more controllable.

The easier car to drive will feel better than the car you have to learn to drive.

So now the ZL1 is "easier to drive" with finesse. Agreed. Which is exactly what's being reported, and experienced. By EVERYONE. Amateurs AND Pros. 'Cept drag racers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

It's little to do with tires, he forgot the actual gearing is much different which allows the gt500 to get its power down fine. Don't buy into the myth about tire width either. 20mm out of 285mm...

The real problem is in the rear suspension geometry on the gt500. A wats or 4 link would make it much more confidence inspiring.

When you set a car into a corner...and actually execute the corner...the car does NOT care what gear ratio is at play at that moment. It cares about what is touching/gripping the ground...which would be the TIRES.

And 20 mm TIMES FOUR is quite an advantage REGARDLESS of gear ratio or weight.

FACT.

Why no Watts linkage or 4-link? Ask Ford. They cheaped out to approximate the ZL1 "target price". Same as they did with the wheels and tires...

FACT.

Their money's in the ENGINE. GM's is in the suspension/wheels/tires. Just like Ford USED to do with the '03-'04 Cobras...

FACT.

LOWDOWN · 06-24-2012, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eolson

the ZL1 is wonderfully engineered for the average person to drive well easily. We all knew this to be the case

And exceedingly well by above-average drivers.

To "manhandle" the 500 consistently well, handicapped as it is, is NOT a task very many will accomplish...let alone in a one-day road test.

8cd03gro · 06-24-2012, 04:28 PM

I don't understand why they aren't surprised by the 1/4 times the zl1 put down. A 12.4 is not impressive. Sorry if anyone disagrees, but it's not. If you're not into drag racing it shouldn't matter to you, but to call a 12.4 from the zl1 an impressive ET just seems bogus.

View Poll Results: ZL1 or GT500, Which one would you get?
ZL1	5	35.71%
GT500	9	64.29%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

06-22-2012, 11:10 PM	#3039
Blue Maro Demon Drives: 2010 AQUA BLUE CAMARO RS Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,193	Automobilemag.com have the other two parts of their review up while the GT500 won the quarter mile drag strip run like we knew it would they seem to prefer the ZL1 overall since it is a more well rounded car. Seems the GT500 is only good for the drag strip they give the nod to the Camaro ZL1 for track, and daily day to day use heres what they said at the end of their review. Its a shame if the Camaro didnt have all the weight and just a little more power it would have easily won the overall test at the drag strip. The GT500 will likely still win buyers over looking for the meanest, most brutal muscle car available from the factory. The power is insane, the look is intoxicating, and as we've found, the 662 hp on tap (along with launch control) makes it one of the quickest factory-built muscle cars. If quarter-mile times, a 200-mph top speed, horsepower bragging rights, and a raw, muscle-bound feel are what you seek in a muscle car, the GT500 is far and away your dream machine. That said, the Camaro ZL1 objectively feels like the all-around victor. Despite its 82-hp and 268-pound disadvantage, it managed to set outstanding times on a road course, impressive times at the strip, and feels far more genteel and tractable on a daily basis. It may aim at the same customer demographic as the GT500, and share a similar powertrain configuration and price tag, but drive the two back to back, and they hardly feel as if they're direct competitors. The ZL1's well-rounded behavior, both on and off the track, and respectable performance numbers earn it a victory - though it may well be short lived. Ford is hard at work on a new Mustang that finally gains independent rear suspension. We know little about that car, but it should be obvious to all that the pony car wars are far from reaching a cease-fire. __________________

06-22-2012, 11:36 PM	#3040
eolson eolson Drives: 2006 premium Package Mustang GT cou Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Northville, MI Posts: 249	truth11, I think you are dead wrong about the Automobile Article about the run at Gingerman. The driver is admitting he only counted or ran one run for each car. He admits that he could not configure his shifting properly with the GT500s tall gears for the course for optimal speed. If you speak with Gingerman veterans, this was HIS problem with the car, not every good drivers. His driving the taller gears could be accomplished better by someone who knows how to drive taller gears better than him on a course of that type. He does not count his own limitations with the gearing as a possible reason for slower times as he did with HIS problem with mis-shifting the ZR1. Your assumption he would have had better time if... was not based on repeated proven runs that he reported on. What it comes off sounding like is open ended issues with HIS driving of these cars that caused his own admission to variables that could have concluded differently in lap times given multiple runs. Un like Randy Pobst who actually takes many practice runs with each car and does not place lower or higher values of time on single events with the tests. Clearly the ZL1 out cornered the Boss LG on the Randy Pobst comparison last fall. Pobst admitted that he was less confident with the Boss to run it over the rougher curbs of the track to gain time as he did in the ZL1. This statement clearly indicates that he did not drive the Boss LG over the curbs as hard as he did with the ZL1.This fact and weaker braking limited the Boss LS's time according to Pobst. The GT500 has the better brakes, so what real % slower is it than the ZL1 on courses? My point is that even though the ZL1 suspension is more sophisticated than the Boss or GT500, and the ZL1 could be run over curbs as at the Nurburgring, and in the Boss LG/ZL1 test because it does have a more confidence inspiring suspension, that does not preclude the Boss LS or the GT500 to be pushed through these elements by drivers that are accustomed to the scarier ride in the Mustang, as it is in competitions all over the country. The Automobile Mag test article did not systematically test numbers and times from multiple runs and different techniques of driving, as would be the case with individuals acclimating to a particular car. The driver came off sounding fairly clueless of how to tame each negative encountered in both cars. He clearly stated any negatives for the ZL1 were flukes on his part, but the negatives were all inherent and unsolvable for the GT500. It was very biased. His assertions of a boatload of sway have not been reported from other tests, so it will be interesting to hear objective track tests from C&D, R&T, and MT. I will be happy to concede the ZL1 is a more sophisticated and mathematically faster corner carver than the GT500 or the Boss LS, but as to by how much, I need to see multiple runs done with multiple techniques by unafraid drivers who honestly attempt to adapt to either car's realities, and not bitch about them from single runs, but actually try to adapt as any consumer would. Those numbers will then stand clear. I can test drive both of these cars to see how comfy they are, or how they handle in aggressive street situations. Let's see the numbers like in the Edmunds report and from the multiple runs at the drag strip all over the country. Multiple passes on road courses with good drivers and lap times that are not contingent on complaining about what went wrong. Then I'll be happy to accept the real % faster the ZL1 is over the GT500 is on average around the twisties. Erik __________________ 2006 Prem Pkg Mustang GT coupe. Saleen SC,10psi, 454rwhp,442rwtq, Complete Steeda/H&R, suspension change out, with weight loss, Techco Watts link, Stoptech big brakes, Race clutch, Alum. flywheel, Alum 1 pc driveshaft, 9x18,10x18 chrome bullit wheels, 285/40/18,255/45/18 nitto 555 tires. 3545 lbs currently. New car scent air freshener. Last edited by eolson; 06-22-2012 at 11:55 PM.

06-23-2012, 01:28 PM	#3043
LOWDOWN Downright Upright Drives: Daily Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Cruisin'... Posts: 4,145	A ZL1 can be "road raced"...finessed...IRS and MRC and bigger rubber...and 52/48 distribution. A GT500 has to be "drifted"...power oversteer...which is a factor of excessive power, too little mechanical grip, 3-link SRA...and 57/43 non-distribution... The GT500 actually carries MORE WEIGHT on its smaller front tires than the much heavier (overall) ZL1. Having gobs of power, in this environment, only works effectively when all that power can be effectively applied...and turned... Pro Tour vs. Pro Street. Last edited by LOWDOWN; 06-23-2012 at 01:54 PM.

06-23-2012, 08:29 PM	#3044
eolson eolson Drives: 2006 premium Package Mustang GT cou Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Northville, MI Posts: 249	Well, looking at it that way, I'm becoming very happy with my 06' again, since my weight loss program, even with my Saleen SC, I've got my front/rear weight ratio a 1/2 % better than my stock 52%/48% to make it 51.5% front/48.5%rear, and my total weight is down to 3475 lbs. Maybe for 2015, Ford will actually have the GT500 weight distribution and handling on par with the fantastic power, brakes, and aerodynamics. Here's hoping, Erik __________________ 2006 Prem Pkg Mustang GT coupe. Saleen SC,10psi, 454rwhp,442rwtq, Complete Steeda/H&R, suspension change out, with weight loss, Techco Watts link, Stoptech big brakes, Race clutch, Alum. flywheel, Alum 1 pc driveshaft, 9x18,10x18 chrome bullit wheels, 285/40/18,255/45/18 nitto 555 tires. 3545 lbs currently. New car scent air freshener.

06-24-2012, 12:03 AM	#3045
TheReaper Drives: 2018 Mustang GT Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Mobile Al Posts: 750	Well lets put the same size tires on both cars and see how well they track.

06-24-2012, 07:11 AM	#3049
eolson eolson Drives: 2006 premium Package Mustang GT cou Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Northville, MI Posts: 249	That's how I have felt through all these discussions. If you listened to the many racers and suspension engineers that occasionally chimed in, they pretty much said the same thing. A) The Boss LS's X brace solves the Monocoque problem of the rear inner tire lifting in hard turns with a fixed axel. SVT chose not to attempt a rear seat under/behind brace, or an actual option for the X brace as the Boss versions have. B) A durable Watts Link solution would remove most all lateral movement on dips and bumps the current set up has with the pan hard bar and the chassis sliding left in dips. C) Using more tubular poly chromide and carbon fiber elements to take weight off the front of the car, and try to get to a 53%/47% front/rear weight distribution. I would have personally preferred if the 5.4 engine of the GT500 was simply supported to be brought to 12 psi for 600 HP, with the larger heat exchanger, and the rest of the money be put into the above items A, B, and C. Still would have the better brakes, and still would have the great aero dynamic improvements, but be a better all around car. I couldn't agree more about your comments that the GT500 is a car that takes some learning to drive well, which is the whole point. Like the GTR, the ZL1 is wonderfully engineered for the average person to drive well easily. We all knew this to be the case, I would simply like to see the GT500 driven to it's max potential to see it's numbers along side the ZL1, not driven half assed by drivers that clearly don't like Mustangs' Erik __________________ 2006 Prem Pkg Mustang GT coupe. Saleen SC,10psi, 454rwhp,442rwtq, Complete Steeda/H&R, suspension change out, with weight loss, Techco Watts link, Stoptech big brakes, Race clutch, Alum. flywheel, Alum 1 pc driveshaft, 9x18,10x18 chrome bullit wheels, 285/40/18,255/45/18 nitto 555 tires. 3545 lbs currently. New car scent air freshener.

06-24-2012, 04:28 PM	#3052
8cd03gro Drives: 2005 STi corn fed Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,997	I don't understand why they aren't surprised by the 1/4 times the zl1 put down. A 12.4 is not impressive. Sorry if anyone disagrees, but it's not. If you're not into drag racing it shouldn't matter to you, but to call a 12.4 from the zl1 an impressive ET just seems bogus.