Buying American Made Harder than Necessary

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Most of the college educated folks in our country work on Wall Street now defrauding investors.

Now, while I admire your background and skill, that's not true and an unfair accusation to make...

[SS 376]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

My advice is learn a skill and stop picking on the working class in our country.

Sometimes I think college is an oversold idea in this country. What's the point of graduating with no job and thousands in student loan debt? I read a stat somewhere that 40-60% of all student loans are either in deferment or default.

[The_Blur]

I'm trying to keep this thread open, but some posts are making this difficult. Please consider forum rules. I do not want anyone to close this discussion.

Originally Posted by Axe

Along those same lines, the days when somebody gets paid $100k/yr to sit behind a desk (because they have a degree in "business management") and say "Work faster guys" SHOULD be over as well. Im a techinician for a utility company, easily make at least 90k/yr, and never spent a day of my life in college - nor do I think people who did are the least bit better than me.

While a $240/wk loss is gonna hurt, I will agree right now they have to see the big picture and take the hit.

You have a very valuable skill, so don't take offense when I say that I learned an expertise and am worth a lot as well. Your skill makes you socially important. My expertise makes me socially valuable. The problem is that the social value of expertise has gone down based on market conditions, but your skill only goes down with the standard of living.

A simpler explanation can be found in basketball. Shooting a basketball from the free throw line is a skill. So long as you develop your shooting through practice, you can consistently shoot free throws. If I practice enough, I can consistently shoot free throws, too. That is a skilled trade. A college education is like the role the coach plays. He designs plays because he has experience with those sorts of plays being successful. He has years of experience that cannot be simply practiced. They require something less tangible than practice. A coach is worthless without good free throw shooters. Good free throw shooters have no job if they don't have a coach. They are mutually useful.

That being said, it is good to see that we completely agree on the big picture.

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Amen. I don't even have a H.S. diploma and I make a bit over six figures annually. The only people still pushing college are those that work in education and those that don't understand NAFTA and CAFTA.

Its morning in America and if your job is capable of being shipped overseas or done by illegal aliens you better be willing to work cheap. Most of the college educated folks in our country work on Wall Street now defrauding investors.

My advice is learn a skill and stop picking on the working class in our country.

I'm not sure to whom this is directed, but I can only assume it is to me. I have no interest in "picking on the working class." One of my groomsmen at my wedding, a college roommate, is a skilled contractor. He is also a part-owner in his company because he studied how to manage a company. Do these workers actually see the aforementioned big picture? Do they realize that they could lose their jobs to cheaper international labor? Is it GM picking on labor by renegotiating their contract or is it labor picking on GM? I think it is clear that GM is trying to crawl out of a hole. The UAW wasn't bankrupt. It was GM, and it is in GM's best interest to save money. Wouldn't you agree the best businesses are those that actually make a profit as opposed to the ones that don't exist?

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Now, while I admire your background and skill, that's not true and an unfair accusation to make...

I'm a college graduate, and I don't have a car, any property (including rental), and owe money. How am I defrauding anyone? This is obviously a rhetorical question. Please don't respond.

Originally Posted by SS 376

Sometimes I think college is an oversold idea in this country. What's the point of graduating with no job and thousands in student loan debt? I read a stat somewhere that 40-60% of all student loans are either in deferment or default.

The point is to have an expertise and be more educated and more experienced before entering the workforce. If you don't see the value in college, don't go. I, on the other hand, went. It was worth every dime. Can we leave it at that?

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Axe

Along those same lines, the days when somebody gets paid $100k/yr to sit behind a desk (because they have a degree in "business management") and say "Work faster guys" SHOULD be over as well. Im a techinician for a utility company, easily make at least 90k/yr, and never spent a day of my life in college - nor do I think people who did are the least bit better than me.

+1. I'll agree with that. Mismanagement in the business offices was the other major component of the GM bankruptcy. However, I did not mean to imply, nor do I think, that I am better than anyone else just because I went to college. My point was simply that I have invested a lot of time, energy, and money (tuition) into developing a marketable skill.

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Amen. I don't even have a H.S. diploma and I make a bit over six figures annually. The only people still pushing college are those that work in education and those that don't understand NAFTA and CAFTA.

Its morning in America and if your job is capable of being shipped overseas or done by illegal aliens you better be willing to work cheap. Most of the college educated folks in our country work on Wall Street now defrauding investors.

To avoid discussing politics, I'll just say that I do understand NAFTA and CAFTA, and stop there.

I'm not trying to tear anyone down. I'm happy for anyone who finds success, and the path they choose to get there doesn't matter. Just because some of us choose to work with our minds doesn't mean that we aren't working just as hard (or honestly) as those who choose to work with their hands. I have many college educated friends and family, and none of us work for Wall Street.

For the record, my degree is in the sciences, not business. The closest I will ever get to Wall Street are through my IRA's and 401k.

[Waco]

Labor unions have outlived their usefulness in America. But good luck getting rid of them.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Waco

Labor unions have outlived their usefulness in America. But good luck getting rid of them.

What do you think GM should do? Getting rid of them isn't something GM can do. Making concessions is a possibility, but at what cost is GM willing to tolerate this? How much should the union be willing to accept as a loss?

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

How much should the union be willing to accept as a loss?

Whatever it takes for survival, but who will determine what it takes.

[zebra]

i ain't got time to go back through this whole thread, but i'll add that i have a college degree, & by the Grace of God, am actually working in my field (after almost a year of unemployment). that said, formal education or not, even though i have some semblance of work (freelance/part time) it don't support me enough to even be able to live on my own. that's why i joined the military.

knowing what it's like to not have work at all & knowing how stressful and anxious it can make you, i would gladly take a bit of a pay cut to retain the job security that GM is trying to offer these guys... but i ain't in charge of the UAW.

i think many union workers take their jobs for granted & expect the employers to cater to them because they have this powerful mass of support, but from the employer's standpoint, it could potentially be much easier, more cost effective, and less of a hassle to take their business elsewhere - where the workers wouldn't feel so 'entitled' and would appreciate the fact that they have a steady means to provide for their families.

would i hate to see 'American' vehicles having to be completely manufactured overseas? of course i would! would i hate to see millions of American jobs being outsourced to other countries? another resounding yes!! but do i think GM should drive itself back into bankruptcy because they're trying to cater to people who ain't realizing the big picture & just looking out for #1... that'd have to be a no.


how about this...
it's almost like the difference between asking "would you like a peanut butter sandwich or Burger King for lunch?" and asking "would you like to be able to eat lunch today?"

[moto-camaro]

Originally Posted by zebra

i think many union workers take their jobs for granted & expect the employers to cater to them because they have this powerful mass of support, but from the employer's standpoint, it could potentially be much easier, more cost effective, and less of a hassle to take their business elsewhere - where the workers wouldn't feel so 'entitled' and would appreciate the fact that they have a steady means to provide for their families.

would i hate to see 'American' vehicles having to be completely manufactured overseas? of course i would! would i hate to see millions of American jobs being outsourced to other countries? another resounding yes!! but do i think GM should drive itself back into bankruptcy because they're trying to cater to people who ain't realizing the big picture & just looking out for #1... that'd have to be a no.


how about this...
it's almost like the difference between asking "would you like a peanut butter sandwich or Burger King for lunch?" and asking "would you like to be able to eat lunch today?"

i was in the middle of writing up a nice lengthy response, but this sums up all my ideas nicely.

[zebra]

glad i could save you the time that one took me about 10 minutes to get close to right

[SleepWarz]

Sigh, I know my post will just get deleted....

But just because somebody wasted their time getting educated does not mean they deserve to work more than anyone else.
Same deal with the union... GM should tell them to take the $3 pay cut before it becomes $5.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by zebra

glad i could save you the time that one took me about 10 minutes to get close to right

Why didn't you post earlier? You could've saved me the time!

Originally Posted by SleepWarz

Sigh, I know my post will just get deleted....

But just because somebody wasted their time getting educated does not mean they deserve to work more than anyone else.
Same deal with the union... GM should tell them to take the $3 pay cut before it becomes $5.

I have no intention of deleting this post.

[SleepWarz]

Naw I had to prune and rewrite it like 5 times >.>

I keep going off the deep end ranting over pointless things lol.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by SleepWarz

Naw I had to prune and rewrite it like 5 times >.>

I keep going off the deep end ranting over pointless things lol.

Hey, we all do it at some point or another.