Did anyone else just see the story on Toyota on NBC?

[skuttduck]

Originally Posted by Red Rocker

They've done that for a while now. I can't remember when they made switchover though.

On the Camry's it was done in 2002.

My 2000 Camry is connected in the old style.

[camaro2lt]

I will be tradeing in my camry for the all new equinox.Toyota s got big problems

[flz34]

I read about it.. sad story

[esperman]

Originally Posted by Blakout

I don't think you'd ever see any of the big three doing this kind of shady dealing.

oh yeah...go google Ford Explorer roll overs.

[Bert]

I haven't seen the interviews, but my personal (admitedly somewhat uniformed) opinion is that this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion. It's like when the big guy on the block aka the one to beat shows a little weakness, all the others jump on it and say "see, I told you he wasn't so great!"

I don't have the exact numbers handy, but statistically Toyotas are still much safer than the average . . . even if you attribute every single fatality in a toyota to a vehicle fault, obviously a very conservative assumption, they are still well below the average.

Again I did not see the interview . . . but I do not understand how somebody can have their car going over 100 mph for 6 minutes and not think to step on the brakes? or put it in neutral? or turn off the ignition? and again I don't have the details handy, but I've seen an article that said the brakes will always overcome the engine; I'm sure some of you might be familiar with this from power braking or the imfamous "brake stand"

Maybe they did intentionally conceal it, but that isn't anything that every other major car manufacturer hasn't also done. Were they a little slow to respond? Well yes maybe so, but that is part of their culture -- they act slowly and deliberately to understand and solve problems.

Maybe the root cause is that the company grew too big too fast; it is extremely difficult to control everything in that huge global environment.

My 2006 Camry has over 100,000 miles on it, hasn't spent a minute in the shop for anything besides routine planned maintenance, and I'm driving it every day without a worry. (Yes I'd rather be driving a Camaro!)

Does anyone remember the Firestone/Explorer fiasco? How does that compare?

[2ndgenz28]

Originally Posted by esperman

oh yeah...go google Ford Explorer roll overs.

That goes right back to the 38psi thread from today.

Ford told people to run 28psi in the tires for ride quality, but you were screwed in a panic maneuver; to soft. Firestone took allot of the blame but on the side of the tires they just list the MAX psi rating you can use, so its back on Ford for recommending the rating "to" use.

The door on a car always give a psi rating for ride quality first, MPG 2nd.
Why the yahoo in the 38psi thread got better MPG but a stiffer ride.

Though its all 4psi

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Bert

I do not understand how somebody can have their car going over 100 mph for 6 minutes and not think to step on the brakes? or put it in neutral? or turn off the ignition? and again I don't have the details handy, but I've seen an article that said the brakes will always overcome the engine; I'm sure some of you might be familiar with this from power braking or the imfamous "brake stand"

A 'Brake Stand' happens from a dead stop. Go out and get your car to 100 mph, keep your foot on the gas without letting up, and try braking to stop. (ok, don't really but you see my point.) When the vehicle is already moving at that speed, will not be easy. Not every car has huge high performance Brembos.

And most of your Lexus will get to 100mph, from already at freeway speeds, pretty quickly.

That officer and his family in California was no dummy. And he never got it to stop before they all died.

Fact is, a lot of people will panic. Wether it's elementary to you or me, it isn't to many. Bonnie drives a Lexus and I have made sure she knows what to do in this event but if it happens at the right moment (or wrong moment) NONE of us would be safe.

[Russo]

i can't seem to be able to build a Tundra on the website right now... whats going on?

[Waco]

Originally Posted by Blakout

I don't think you'd ever see any of the big three doing this kind of shady dealing.

Ford had the Pinto...GM had the gas tanks outside the rail on their trucks. I know there was bean counting going on with the Pinto, not sure about the GM truck gas tank issue.

[The_Blur]

Which story are we discussing? By now, there are about 30 front page headlines discussing how Toyota is the worst, most fraudulent manufacturer in automotive history. Toyota has failed on a level not matched since the fall of the Roman Empire.

[Class1E]

Originally Posted by Bert

...
Again I did not see the interview . . . but I do not understand how somebody can have their car going over 100 mph for 6 minutes and not think to step on the brakes? or put it in neutral? or turn off the ignition? and again I don't have the details handy, but I've seen an article that said the brakes will always overcome the engine; I'm sure some of you might be familiar with this from power braking or the imfamous "brake stand"
...

Normally, you are 100% correct. In fact, Car and Driver did a test in their March 2010 issue to determine the braking distance of a V6 Camry at closed throttle and WOT. Their results:
70 mph, closed throttle: 174 ft
70 mph, WOT: 190 ft
100 mph, closed throttle: 347 ft
100 mph, WOT: 435 ft

They also did the same test on a Roush Stage 3 Mustang (540 BHP)
70 mph, closed throttle: 166 ft
70 mph, WOT: 246 ft
100 mph, closed throttle: 324 ft
100 mph, WOT: 903 ft

So it would SEEM that, no matter what, the brakes should always be able to stop the car. The woman testifying to the committee stated that she had both feet on the brakes and tried shifting to another gear (including reverse), but neither would stop the car. I'm inclined to believe her; she has done nothing to cause me to question her credibility, unlike Toyota. The fact that people have been absolutely unable to stop their cars leads me to believe that Toyota has bigger problems than they are letting on (or realize; I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now). I've attached the video of the interview for those that haven't seen it yet.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Class1E

Normally, you are 100% correct. In fact, Car and Driver did a test in their March 2010 issue to determine the braking distance of a V6 Camry at closed throttle and WOT. Their results:
70 mph, closed throttle: 174 ft
70 mph, WOT: 190 ft
100 mph, closed throttle: 347 ft
100 mph, WOT: 435 ft

They also did the same test on a Roush Stage 3 Mustang (540 BHP)
70 mph, closed throttle: 166 ft
70 mph, WOT: 246 ft
100 mph, closed throttle: 324 ft
100 mph, WOT: 903 ft

So it would SEEM that, no matter what, the brakes should always be able to stop the car. The woman testifying to the committee stated that she had both feet on the brakes and tried shifting to another gear (including reverse), but neither would stop the car. I'm inclined to believe her; she has done nothing to cause me to question her credibility, unlike Toyota. The fact that people have been absolutely unable to stop their cars leads me to believe that Toyota has bigger problems than they are letting on (or realize). I hope they find the problem and correct it soon.

We're looking at cars that are fundamentally flawed and need immediate redesigns. I hope Congress forces Toyota to suspend production of all vehicles with similar characteristics until more thorough testing can be done. Toyota pumps out too many car in the American marketplace to get away with another floor mat fix, and I frankly don't want to drive with potential death traps all around me on public streets.

[cHaotix]

The comments on Youtube are hilariously misinformed.

[Hopper]

Originally Posted by Bert

I don't have the exact numbers handy, but statistically Toyotas are still much safer than the average . . . even if you attribute every single fatality in a toyota to a vehicle fault, obviously a very conservative assumption, they are still well below the average.

I don't question Toyota's safety record, but this is simply not true. If you hold Toyota at fault for every fatality in one of their cars and don't do the same for every other OEM, Toyotas would be the worst cars on the road. That's because driver error is at fault in greater than 50% of all traffic fatalities. The math doesn't work and this is pure speculation.

Originally Posted by Bert

Again I did not see the interview . . . but I do not understand how somebody can have their car going over 100 mph for 6 minutes and not think to step on the brakes? or put it in neutral? or turn off the ignition? and again I don't have the details handy, but I've seen an article that said the brakes will always overcome the engine;

Again, not true on all cars. Many cars have undersized brakes that the torque of the engine at WOT easily overcomes. This, combined with momentum of the vehicle, can make the brakes useless. Putting a car in neutral is the 1st and best course of action, but a panicked driver might not think of that. A trained CA Highway Patrol driver in CA didn't think to do this in the 1st Lexus crash last year. What makes you think a less skilled driver would always know to do that? Turning off the ignition is not the worst thing you can do, but the driver will lose power brakes and power steering, which can make the bad situation worse.

Originally Posted by Bert

Maybe they did intentionally conceal it, but that isn't anything that every other major car manufacturer hasn't also done.

I would hope before you post a statement like that you can back it up with facts. EVERY car manufacturer couldn't possibly have done this or more would have been taken to the woodshed and we would know about it. No company can conceal their actions forever and the truth always comes out.

I didn't think Ford's Firestone tire debacle was intentional and I don't think Toyota intentionally covered anything up either. What's their long term payoff for doing so? Companies that want to be around for a long time simply don't do this kind of thing on purpose. However, that's where the similarities end.

I'm not a Ford fan, but I recognize and commend Ford for getting out in front of the Firestone tire situation on their Explorers and doing everything they could in a transparent way once the problem was identified. Sucked for them and it hurt their business for awhile, but they got past it and look where they are today. In contrast, I DO feel Toyota acted irresponsibly in their investigation of the problems reported by customers, NHTSA, State Farm and others. They were in denial and weren't transparent with the American public and that's what this is all about. I agree with you that cultural differences had a lot to do with this. In Japan, transparency is not viewed in the same light as it is in the US.

This isn't a conspiracy for profit...it's just corporate negligence. They got fat, dumb and happy and are now paying the price. No, I don't think this is overblown and I think the families of those who lost their lives would agree. This is very serious business and we owe it to the departed to find out how this happened and make sure it doesn't happen again. Unfortunately, when everyone is screaming conspiracy, a public and very transparent inquiry is the only way to get this done. Yes, some in Congress will use this for political gain. That's the one thing that makes me sick about America, but our system isn't perfect and is better than any other I know of. Human nature will never be totally removed from the equation.

I don't wish Toyota any ill will. I wouldn't wish what they are going through right now on any company. I think, in their minds, they truly thought there weren't any problems. Bottom line...they drank too much of their own Kool-Aid and now their reputation will be tarnished for a long time.