Chevrolet vs GMC

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

One word.

Profit.

Well of course I know that it comes down to profit. I believe that in the long run, if they were to restructure the brand, then pontiac would have been more profitable. The difference is that GMC is profitable now.

But really, GMC happens to have suvs that are in the middle of chevrolet and cadillac, for no reason. I mean, at least this has happened from what I have seen, less and less people are buying gmc trucks. Why? It's pretty simple, when the escalade line didn't exist, then the yukon line was the upscale version, but nowadays they exist for no reason at all. I mean really, gm should get rid of the yukon line and let people buy the tahoe line or the escalade line, both of which are making profit anyway.

If you don't catch my drift from the last paragraph, then just look at the colorado, silverado line vs. the canyon, sierra line. And I mean, especially the denali canyon and sierra, they happen to be the upscale versions, so people would prefer to buy them over the colorado and silverado. Yet, if a cadillac version of these trucks was to come out, people would prefer the cadillac versions. Honestly, this makes sense, just take a look at the avalanche and escalade ext, there is no yukon version for a reason.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 2000v6

Well of course I know that it comes down to profit. I believe that in the long run, if they were to restructure the brand, then pontiac would have been more profitable. The difference is that GMC is profitable now.

But really, GMC happens to have suvs that are in the middle of chevrolet and cadillac, for no reason. I mean, at least this has happened from what I have seen, less and less people are buying gmc trucks. Why? It's pretty simple, when the escalade line didn't exist, then the yukon line was the upscale version, but nowadays they exist for no reason at all. I mean really, gm should get rid of the yukon line and let people buy the tahoe line or the escalade line, both of which are making profit anyway.

If you don't catch my drift from the last paragraph, then just look at the colorado, silverado line vs. the canyon, sierra line. And I mean, especially the denali canyon and sierra, they happen to be the upscale versions, so people would prefer to buy them over the colorado and silverado. Yet, if a cadillac version of these trucks was to come out, people would prefer the cadillac versions. Honestly, this makes sense, just take a look at the avalanche and escalade ext, there is no yukon version for a reason.

Did you read my longer explanation?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Did you read my longer explanation?

I'll give you The_Blur notes, as opposed to Cliff's notes, on the post.

Pontiac—there were Chevys wearing darts and split grilles. Aside from the G8 and the unprofitable Solstice, there was no future.

Chevrolet—new Chevys will look more expensive than they cost, like the Malibu. They will retain their heritage as being the cars and trucks for everyone.

GMC—GM has a long history of profitable trucks, so GM has a truck brand. They are truck experts, and they do an amazing job. These are more upscale than Chevys and will have a unique style as time progresses.

Buick—the new target is professionals. FenwickHockey65 cites the newer ad campaigns for new Buick products.

Cadillac—in order to compete with BMW and Mercedes, Cadillac is moving up. Expect Cadillac to be the Cadillac of fine automobiles.

I want to add on the Pontiac point that the people who most wanted products like the G8 to succeed were performance enthusiasts. On this forum, for instance, Camaro enthusiasts rooted for the G8, but we, on the whole, would rather drive a Camaro. The G8 played second fiddle to other performance cars that people would rather have, and the same is true of other products in the Pontiac lineup. It had to go.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by 2000v6

Well of course I know that it comes down to profit. I believe that in the long run, if they were to restructure the brand, then pontiac would have been more profitable. The difference is that GMC is profitable now.

But really, GMC happens to have suvs that are in the middle of chevrolet and cadillac, for no reason. I mean, at least this has happened from what I have seen, less and less people are buying gmc trucks. Why? It's pretty simple, when the escalade line didn't exist, then the yukon line was the upscale version, but nowadays they exist for no reason at all. I mean really, gm should get rid of the yukon line and let people buy the tahoe line or the escalade line, both of which are making profit anyway.

If you don't catch my drift from the last paragraph, then just look at the colorado, silverado line vs. the canyon, sierra line. And I mean, especially the denali canyon and sierra, they happen to be the upscale versions, so people would prefer to buy them over the colorado and silverado. Yet, if a cadillac version of these trucks was to come out, people would prefer the cadillac versions. Honestly, this makes sense, just take a look at the avalanche and escalade ext, there is no yukon version for a reason.

well, if you offer 3 teirs of "luxury" as it were. Chevy being the bottom, GMC being in the middle, and Caddy being up top...

why would it make sense to sell only top model and low model? some people want that middle ground.

same with say... the corvette.... 3 main models. the base coupe, the Z06, and the ZR1. (the camaro will follow suit with the Z28....did I say that...lol).


now I know you are thinking. "But Spike, we're talking about 3 different brands, not just a single car with multiple teirs"

and you are right, but while it might seem like a waste of time to offer 3 lines of nearly identical vehicles (save for a facelift and a couple badges), that facelift and those couple badges are worth a lot to certain buyers and GM is fully aware of this and is cashing in on it. and as long as they are making money, then our Camaros can stay.

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Mmkay. Longer explanation now that I'm not sitting in Biology lecture.

No, GM did not screw up by keeping GMC over Pontiac. Pontiac had no future. Besides the G8 and Solstice, Pontiac sold a bunch of rebadged Chevys. How is this different than GMC? The rebadged Chevys sold under Pontiac were cars, not trucks. Trucks have historically been GM's most profitable products. As such, it's self-explanatory that GMC rakes in profit by the boatload.

In addition, Pontiac had no overseas market outside NA. GMC has one in the Middle East.

The Orlando and Granite are two completely different cars on two completely different platforms aimed at two completely different demographics.

In addition, the Escalade (unless Whitacre gets his way) is moving off an SUV/truck platform and onto the Lambda platform, making the Yukon/Yukon XL Denali GM's luxury SUVs. Market demographics already support this as Yukon/Yukon XL Denali owners are generally more affluent than Escalade/Escalade ESV owners.

Now that Pontiac is gone, the Buick-GMC dealership network appears to be moving towards selling vehicles aimed at professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc). This is obvious in the marketing efforts shown in the new LaCrosse.

Chevrolet is moving towards a value-based lineup, offering affordable products without compromising quality and style, as noted with the launch of the Malibu and Equinox, both of which have been described as looking much more expensive than they actually cost.

The Cadillac brand is moving more upscale to compete with BMW and Mercedes with the introduction of the 3-series/C-class fighting ATS in the near future, along with the recently introduced XTS flagship. The CTS will be growing in size to match the 5-series and E-class.

Yes, I definitely get your point about the GMC selling more trucks, historically, then any other of their brands selling their respective products. But, look at where the truck market is going nowadays. Unless somebody really needs a pickup to carry stuff over crappy roads, most people prefer vans. The SUV market, I'm not saying that it's dead, but suvs are slowly starting to gravitate into smaller spectrum of suvs. What's gonna happen when price of gas happens to climb back up to 5 bucks per gallon? And yes, it is a very real possibility. I mean I prefer to own a larger suv such as a hummer or escalade, for the winter and to tow stuff, but I'm not going to buy one until the end of this year, and by then, I may have to look at trailblazer/envoy/grand cherokee.

Like I said, SUVs are starting to gravitate to the smaller end of the spectrum, this can be seen by the emergence of a growing popularity with CUVs.

That's why I believe that pontiac, if it had been restructured properly, could have had a good future ahead. Slowly, people will want to buy smaller cars, people will want to buy hybrids. That's why gm is developing the volt and will release it into production. Yet, if the insight and the prius are a testament, people will want to have sportier versions. That's why if you take a look at autoblog, you will see that honda has developed the insight sports modulo concept. Have you seen people gravitate towards the tahoe/escalade/yukon hybrids? I haven't and I only see them in the dealer's lots.

I didn't know that gmc happens to have an outlet in the middle east. I also didn't know that the orlando and granite will be different from each other. They look hell of a lot alike to me, it's just that the orlando will kind of be an mpv/crossover marketed toward families, while the granite will be marketed toward young adults in urban areas.

I also didn't know that the esclade will be moving onto the lambda platform, I thought that all of the suvs were moving onto the platform. In that case, if it does happen, then I am wrong. But, until I see an escalade on the lambda platform at an auto show, I don't see the yukon line becoming the upscale version. And even if the escalade will move over to the lambda platform, what will be the difference really? I mean it's just going to become smaller than the current gen. but not by much.

I don't know where you live, but at least in NYC, lawyers, doctors and affluent people happen to choose escalade(s) over yukon(s).

Also, you need to look at the last two statements, as that happens to lead right back to my argument. Chevrolet happens to be the brand that is going to be marketed as a value based lineup that will not compromise on reliability, quality and style. And obviously, Cadillac is the brand that is more upscale to compete against bmw, benz and audi. But look that leads right back to what I'm saying, chevrolet is the affordable but good car brand that is basically the "average" car brand, cadillac is the upscale brand. So, where is gmc? Stuck right in the middle

[FxsX24]

it has and always be

chevy on the lower end, basics to get you by, with options if you want them

gmc, generally starting off where the mid-high end chevy left off, and even more options than the chevy in the end

example

the blazer came with interior and exterior trim packages that were all decent

the jimmy came with a better interior options list (ex the option of climate control, steering wheel controls) and better looking exterior trim options

then the bravada came with the same basic exterior as the jimmy, but the inside had options for (fake) woodgrain interior, climate control at a lower tier, AWD, leather, sun roof

consider the bravada to be cadi (of the GMT 325)


the same basic things apply now, except it is all built better than before

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I'll give you The_Blur notes, as opposed to Cliff's notes, on the post.

Pontiac—there were Chevys wearing darts and split grilles. Aside from the G8 and the unprofitable Solstice, there was no future.

Chevrolet—new Chevys will look more expensive than they cost, like the Malibu. They will retain their heritage as being the cars and trucks for everyone.

GMC—GM has a long history of profitable trucks, so GM has a truck brand. They are truck experts, and they do an amazing job. These are more upscale than Chevys and will have a unique style as time progresses.

Buick—the new target is professionals. FenwickHockey65 cites the newer ad campaigns for new Buick products.

Cadillac—in order to compete with BMW and Mercedes, Cadillac is moving up. Expect Cadillac to be the Cadillac of fine automobiles.

I want to add on the Pontiac point that the people who most wanted products like the G8 to succeed were performance enthusiasts. On this forum, for instance, Camaro enthusiasts rooted for the G8, but we, on the whole, would rather drive a Camaro. The G8 played second fiddle to other performance cars that people would rather have, and the same is true of other products in the Pontiac lineup. It had to go.

Alright so,

Pontiac - I definitely agree with you there, but if you read my next post you will see that I stated that the brand needed to be restructured. In what way, I'm not sure.

Chevy - Definitely agree with you there, 100%.

GMC - Yes, it does have a long history of selling trucks. Yes, it basically is a brand made up of truck experts. But here's the deal, if they continue building large trucks what's going to happen if fuel is going to go back up to 5 bucks per gallon? That's where we need to see the big change, they need to release new crossovers, but this is what is going on, so this is not my argument. My argument is that gmc is located between chevy and cadillac. All of their cars are basically the same as chevy and/or cadillac. That's why I don't see the point of them existing.

Buick - I guess I see your point. But where I'm from, professionals (I should know, I don't have that many semesters left and I know people that have graduated from college) prefer cadillac. They either buy cadillac, bmw, audi or benz.

Cadillac - Definitely agree with you, 100%, cadillac will be cadillac. It's not going to be as good as bmw, audi or benz though

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 2000v6

Yes, I definitely get your point about the GMC selling more trucks, historically, then any other of their brands selling their respective products. But, look at where the truck market is going nowadays. Unless somebody really needs a pickup to carry stuff over crappy roads, most people prefer vans. The SUV market, I'm not saying that it's dead, but suvs are slowly starting to gravitate into smaller spectrum of suvs. What's gonna happen when price of gas happens to climb back up to 5 bucks per gallon? And yes, it is a very real possibility. I mean I prefer to own a larger suv such as a hummer or escalade, for the winter and to tow stuff, but I'm not going to buy one until the end of this year, and by then, I may have to look at trailblazer/envoy/grand cherokee.

Like I said, SUVs are starting to gravitate to the smaller end of the spectrum, this can be seen by the emergence of a growing popularity with CUVs.

That's why I believe that pontiac, if it had been restructured properly, could have had a good future ahead. Slowly, people will want to buy smaller cars, people will want to buy hybrids. That's why gm is developing the volt and will release it into production. Yet, if the insight and the prius are a testament, people will want to have sportier versions. That's why if you take a look at autoblog, you will see that honda has developed the insight sports modulo concept. Have you seen people gravitate towards the tahoe/escalade/yukon hybrids? I haven't and I only see them in the dealer's lots.

I didn't know that gmc happens to have an outlet in the middle east. I also didn't know that the orlando and granite will be different from each other. They look hell of a lot alike to me, it's just that the orlando will kind of be an mpv/crossover marketed toward families, while the granite will be marketed toward young adults in urban areas.

I also didn't know that the esclade will be moving onto the lambda platform, I thought that all of the suvs were moving onto the platform. In that case, if it does happen, then I am wrong. But, until I see an escalade on the lambda platform at an auto show, I don't see the yukon line becoming the upscale version. And even if the escalade will move over to the lambda platform, what will be the difference really? I mean it's just going to become smaller than the current gen. but not by much.

I don't know where you live, but at least in NYC, lawyers, doctors and affluent people happen to choose escalade(s) over yukon(s).

Also, you need to look at the last two statements, as that happens to lead right back to my argument. Chevrolet happens to be the brand that is going to be marketed as a value based lineup that will not compromise on reliability, quality and style. And obviously, Cadillac is the brand that is more upscale to compete against bmw, benz and audi. But look that leads right back to what I'm saying, chevrolet is the affordable but good car brand that is basically the "average" car brand, cadillac is the upscale brand. So, where is gmc? Stuck right in the middle

Yes, let's analyze the state of the truck market and how the F-series and GMT-900s are consistent among the top best-selling vehicles every single month.

Vans? If any segment is dying, it's the van segment. There's a reason GM and Ford left that market to focus on CUVs.

You do realize that Trailblazer and Envoy are dead?

The SUV market is shrinking, yes, but it remains a very lucrative market. Just last month, GM sold over 17,000 full size SUVs. And once again, there's the ever present profit aspect. GM SUVs are not going anywhere for some time.

The Insight is a joke. I don't care if Honda throws a body kit and fancy lights on it. It's a sales flop and an epic failure.

I have seen plenty of Tahoe and Yukon Hybrids and the occasional Escalade Hybrid on the road.

Orlando is built on the Delta-II platform and is a seven-passenger MPV. Granite is built on the Gamma-II platform and is a five-passenger urban utility vehicle.

You really need to do some research into the capabilities of platforms. The Lambda platform is capable of towing/hauling far less than the GMT-900 platform. Escalade is transitioning over to Lambda simply because Escalade owners have no need for the utility capabilities of the GMT-900 platform. In addition, the Lambda platform offers an improvement in fuel economy. Therefore, if a prospective customer needs a large luxurious vehicle with tow/haul capability, the Yukon/Yukon XL Denali is available.

I don't care where you live. It doesn't matter. The fact remains that Yukon/Yukon XL Denali owners are more affluent than Escalade/Escalade ESV owners.

Chevrolet is the value proposition here. Cadillac will soon become a full luxury brand. There has to be some middle ground for those who can't afford a Cadillac but would prefer not to drive a Chevrolet (remember, Chevrolet is seen as a budget brand, similar to Toyota and Honda). Buick and GMC offer customers this outlet.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 2000v6

GMC - Yes, it does have a long history of selling trucks. Yes, it basically is a brand made up of truck experts. But here's the deal, if they continue building large trucks what's going to happen if fuel is going to go back up to 5 bucks per gallon? That's where we need to see the big change, they need to release new crossovers, but this is what is going on, so this is not my argument. My argument is that gmc is located between chevy and cadillac. All of their cars are basically the same as chevy and/or cadillac. That's why I don't see the point of them existing.

Buick - I guess I see your point. But where I'm from, professionals (I should know, I don't have that many semesters left and I know people that have graduated from college) prefer cadillac. They either buy cadillac, bmw, audi or benz.

Cadillac - Definitely agree with you, 100%, cadillac will be cadillac. It's not going to be as good as bmw, audi or benz though

PROFIT.

And before you assume that Cadillac isn't going to be as good as BMW or Mercedes, I'd like to fill you in on the fact that the upcoming ATS is referred to as "the BMW killer" within GM.

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

well, if you offer 3 teirs of "luxury" as it were. Chevy being the bottom, GMC being in the middle, and Caddy being up top...

why would it make sense to sell only top model and low model? some people want that middle ground.

same with say... the corvette.... 3 main models. the base coupe, the Z06, and the ZR1. (the camaro will follow suit with the Z28....did I say that...lol).


now I know you are thinking. "But Spike, we're talking about 3 different brands, not just a single car with multiple teirs"

and you are right, but while it might seem like a waste of time to offer 3 lines of nearly identical vehicles (save for a facelift and a couple badges), that facelift and those couple badges are worth a lot to certain buyers and GM is fully aware of this and is cashing in on it. and as long as they are making money, then our Camaros can stay.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. I just don't see the point for that middle ground. Especially when really there is no "middle" ground. It's the exact same thing.

Corvette - I don't see that as three different models, I see them as different sub-models. It's different versions when it comes to performance. The base coupe - nothing special
The Z06 - the affordable corvette for the middle class, while still being pretty good at the track
The ZR1 - the corvette for the rich class, when it comes to corvettes, it the king

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

You do realize that Trailblazer and Envoy are dead?

Yes I do, but they are still on their websites, at least the envoy is. So it's kind of like as if they were still around

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Vans? If any segment is dying, it's the van segment. There's a reason GM and Ford left that market to focus on CUVs.

I'm not talking about minivans, I'm talking about straight up vans. GM never left the express and savana still exist. Why did ford come back with the transit? Why is there talk going on that fiat may bring over or create a new van for chrysler?

[2000v6]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

The Insight is a joke. I don't care if Honda throws a body kit and fancy lights on it. It's a sales flop and an epic failure.

Yes it is. That's not what I'm getting at. Volt happens to be an awesome hybrid and will sell well. But why do people prefer converj and the opel version better?

Simple, they are better looking. More upscale

[DGthe3]

So if it were up to you, you would further neuter Pontiac towards an economy brand and kill off GMC instead? Then we could look forward to wonderful ideas a G3 Hybrid and kiss the 4th best selling truck goodbye. And to restructure Pontiac to be as profitable as GMC is right now would be a massive undertaking. For each Yukon sold they probably make a proffit equal to the cost of a G5. Pontiac would have to have a price increase (to seperate it from Chevy) and have a huge volume increase to get on even footing with GMC, but do all this without eating into Cadillac and Buick. This is a nearly impossible task, compared to keeping another brand which posts large profits, good sales volume, and has a fairly clear identity. If it ain't broke, why kill it?

GMC doesn't exactly compete with Cadillac, its closer in position to Buick (which you seem to have left out). But even then, there is only 1 model with either that shares a platform with GMC (Escalade/Yukon Acadia/Enclave). So getting away from the luxury cars, GMC's are nicer trucks than their Chevy counterparts. Stronger styling, more features and options. Its said that a company may buy Chevy's for their work trucks, but the foreman will get a GMC for himself.