LNF vs. K20A: Comparison Proving GM's Misperception

[MrIcky]

Not going to belabor an argument, but I will say:

"For similar money I can get a Mazdaspeed 3 with a better interior, more refinement, and similar performance. GM could fix all of this fairly easily by exerting a little sweat tweaking what is a fundamentally excellent platform for better ride and handling"

At least for the LNF version is not accurate. The LNF SS does ride and handle better then the MS3. It understeers less, has better numbers (not just bench racing either), handles bumps and transitions better (it's much more composed on rough roads). The chassis is actually very refined for it's class- only the GTI probably has a better level of chassis refinement (but lower numbers all around) for a car in this category.

I agree totally on the interior styling. Body styling is eye of the beholder though.

But I understand and respect that Blur was not talking about all of that. I've spent some pretty significant seat time in both the MS3 and the LNF SS though- so I thought I'd point that out. GM seems to have had some awesome engineers who can't quite sync up with the styling department-seems like that's coming around.

[Mr. Wyndham]

When the car or truck wins "Best...", or "...of the year" awards...when sales rise 50 - 100% for that particular model...when it takes a record and obliterates it...uses a standard powertrain but gets equal or better mpg than a hybrid in its class...or perhaps sells 14,000 units before it even starts production, you've got a good vehicle on your hands...and don't tell me different. Nearly every single one of GM's new releases fits into one of the above scenarios.

"Perceptions", are exactly whats holding GM back. NOT product, and if you dispute this, your perceptions are clouding your judgement. You either need to get your behind into a GM dealer sometime this decade, or stop being so ridiculously picky: NO vehicle is perfect".

I will submit that indirectly, poor product led to poor perceptions for the past couple decades, and so is -- indirectly -- the problem. But the past in not the topic of this thread....

[syr74]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

You responded with exactly the opposite of what we're looking to discuss in this thread. I am fully aware that the Corvette lacks the interior styling of a high-end exotic or even a modern sports car. It is behind the times. I agree. You even made sure to point out how the Cobalt SS doesn't convey refinement in its execution........I argue that GM also produces the world's greatest 4-cylinder engines, along with those V8s, and that the LNF is the best engine of that class. I compared it to the K20A, a very popular Honda motor. Let's discuss other comparisons to the LNF, and argue about performance rather than how cars look.

I'm fine with the narrow focus, it just threw me off when you said....

Stop considering GM as a company that gave birth to some of the world's best muscle cars and trucks. That image is too limiting. GM simply makes the best cars across the automotive industry.

....No big deal.

As for the topic at hand, I agree that the LNF is one of the best four cylinders currently on the market, and I'm frankly a bit disappointed that GM hasn't developed more applications around this motor.

Originally Posted by MrIcky

At least for the LNF version is not accurate. The LNF SS does ride and handle better then the MS3. It understeers less, has better numbers (not just bench racing either), handles bumps and transitions better (it's much more composed on rough roads). The chassis is actually very refined for it's class- only the GTI probably has a better level of chassis refinement (but lower numbers all around) for a car in this category.

Having driven both I disagree here. The Cobalt SS goes very fast particularly in the corners, in fact I don't doubt that it is the best handling fwd car sold in the US when driven well....in terms of strict numbers......by a decent margin. That said, the Cobalt SS makes you drive the car the way it wants to be driven in order to go that fast and that isn't particularly rewarding IMO. My two biggest gripes with the Cobalt involve one that seems to be an issues for GM across the board in my experience, steering feel could be better, and another which I expected in a fwd car just not on this level....the reality that when driving really hard in the Cobalt SS I could never get the car to change it's line mid corner. If I picked the wrong line braking for a turn I was stuck with it as every time I tried to correct I simple ended up scrubbing off speed with understeer. Again, this is a typical fwd issue to be fair, the Cobalt just seems to suffer from this moreso than some fwd cars do including the MS3 which I could correct depnding upon how bad my line was.

Ultimately, I'll admit that I am a bit of a sucker for really good steering so this probably colored my opinion against the Cobalt SS just a bit. Still, all in all I liked the car and really great exterior styling coupled with a better interior might have swayed me into the drivers seat back when I was considering a budget, performance compact as a sort of fun daily beater.

Also, in the interest of fairness I'll give the Cobalt credit....torque steer wasn't anything like what the MS3 threw at you, a reality which I found surprising given the torque limiter in the Mazda. Whats more, I do think the Cobalt's highway ride was 'softer' than that of the Mazda, but the Mazda always felt more put together IMO.

Ultimately I am a bit surprised Chevy is starting from scratch for a Cobalt replacement. I genuinely think the Cobalt's chassis may be one of the most fundamentally sound on the market. But what do I know.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by syr74

Ultimately I am a bit surprised Chevy is starting from scratch for a Cobalt replacement. I genuinely think the Cobalt's chassis may be one of the most fundamentally sound on the market. But what do I know.

They're not exactly "starting from scratch" where the chassis is concerned. They're improving on the design that you mentioned. Evolving it in many areas, including weight. The Cobalt rides on Delta, the Cruze will ride on Delta II.

I'm really looking forward to this car.

[The_Blur]

Having read an article that describes the Type R as "the performance standard against which all small cars must be judged," we need to discuss this topic until the perception changes that Honda products are somehow superior. This article, discussing 2 Honda products, is clearly not an assault on any other brand, but it leaves me contemplating why the Civic and Integra command so much respect when current products, like the Cobalt SS, can easily wipe the streets with them.

Article is by Inside Line. Discuss.

[SleepWarz]

What hinders GM is not offering a full spectrum of engine choices in all of their vehicles.

Rather than the underutalized engines.