Muscle Cars in the Future?

[MrCool]

Originally Posted by len56

Fuel Cell is electric, which is kind of boring...

I agree, that's why I like the whole "clean combusting" concept. That way, you could have a 12 cyliner car, and not feel guilty.

Originally Posted by len56

Of course, that's a luxury BMW... so on a 2025 honda civic... they're going to need a faster venting system

Originally Posted by Number 3

The problem with Hydrogen is it is normally in gaseous state. To carry enough Hydrogen around to have any kind of range you have to have tanks that store the Hydrogen at very high pressures. Upwards of 10,000 psi.

What I read is that, in particular for the BMW Hydrogen 7, they use Hydrogen in liquid form because it has more engergy in that state.

I think Hydrogen ICM would probably be the easiest way into the "clean engergy" world because it wouldn't be hard to modify your gas-burning engine to combust hydrogen. The only hitch is just storing it.

That is so cool though, I never thought you could combust water (basically).

[TFord]

Hydrogen would interesting to see....but being an old submariner, Ill pass. if you had a burning leak, you'd never see it (if its pure hydrogen) because it burns ultraviolet. The stuff disolves into some metals to leak out, and can spontaneously ignite when mixing with the air. Ever heard of hydrogen embrittlement...Im not sure exactly how it works, but I know it has to do with the fact that hydrogen can diffuse through metals. Some how it makes the metal become brittle and crack easily. this happens to the majority of metals from nickel to high strength steel alloys, and titanium. It also reacts violently with every oxidizing element.

not saying its impossible, but theres a reason its expensive to use and make. funny thing is its the most abundant element in the universe.

[MrCool]

Originally Posted by TFord

not saying its impossible, but theres a reason its expensive to use and make. funny thing is its the most abundant element in the universe.

It'll be interesting to see how they do it.

Is HHO gas different than what they are using for example in BMW's Hydrogen series?

[TFord]

Originally Posted by MrCool

It'll be interesting to see how they do it.

Is HHO gas different than what they are using for example in BMW's Hydrogen series?

dont know what they're using, Ill look into it though

[MrCool]

Originally Posted by ryftz

this is what combusting hydrogen looks like. now just imagine it in a car

Imagine the flames that would be comming out of the tailpipe...

[FNKNSTN]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The problem with Hydrogen is it is normally in gaseous state. To carry enough Hydrogen around to have any kind of range you have to have tanks that store the Hydrogen at very high pressures. Upwards of 10,000 psi.

Although clean, it is expensive to create the Hydrogen and also the infrastructure. Also to fill a tank to 10,000 psi takes some time.

No easy feat yet.

Yes, but it is compressed and liquified just like most any other gas... like Propane, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen...

How much pressure does your average Aluminum Propane tank hold?

And there are 20-some Hydrogen refueling stations in California, right?

Originally Posted by MrCool

When they talked about hydrogen I always thought that involved some sort of battery. I never heard of them "combusting" hydrogen before. Oh well...

Yes, Hydrogen is a flammable gas. Learned that one in 9th grade Science and History.

Originally Posted by TFord

Hydrogen would interesting to see....but being an old submariner, Ill pass. if you had a burning leak, you'd never see it (if its pure hydrogen) because it burns ultraviolet. The stuff disolves into some metals to leak out, and can spontaneously ignite when mixing with the air. Ever heard of hydrogen embrittlement...Im not sure exactly how it works, but I know it has to do with the fact that hydrogen can diffuse through metals. Some how it makes the metal become brittle and crack easily. this happens to the majority of metals from nickel to high strength steel alloys, and titanium. It also reacts violently with every oxidizing element.

not saying its impossible, but theres a reason its expensive to use and make. funny thing is its the most abundant element in the universe.

If you had a burning leak, you'd know it... 'cause something else would catch fire or melt... and if you didn't see it, you'd smell whatever is burning.

And they've obviously found a way to contain it, without having the container "decompose"

It's an abundant element... but it always comes attached to another element, like Oxygen - for example.

Originally Posted by MrCool

Imagine the flames that would be comming out of the tailpipe...

You mean the steam?

[TFord]

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

Yes, but it is compressed and liquified just like most any other gas... like Propane, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen...

How much pressure does your average Aluminum Propane tank hold?

And there are 20-some Hydrogen refueling stations in California, right?



Yes, Hydrogen is a flammable gas. Learned that one in 9th grade Science and History.



If you had a burning leak, you'd know it... 'cause something else would catch fire or melt... and if you didn't see it, you'd smell whatever is burning.

And they've obviously found a way to contain it, without having the container "decompose"

It's an abundant element... but it always comes attached to another element, like Oxygen - for example.

As I said before its the most abundant element in the universe, but here on earth, natural H2 is rare. Which is why its soooo expensive, because its dangerous, gives your equipment a beating, burns more energy to process than it will yield. And the production cost is more than gasoline.


You mean the steam?

Who's this smart guy?

If you want to get technical the most practical way to use hydrogen for combustion is in its liquid form. The volumetric energy for H2 in gas state is too low, so you'd have to use a whole hell of a lot of it to get any where. Even in liquid form its energy density is far less than gas

So now lets talk about H2 in liquid state. I don't know what pressure is used but they use a jet engine to pressurize it. It also must be kept at -423.166 F. Even under these (ideal) conditions it still diffuses through any container at 1% a day. Now it will need to be a "direct injection" system or there will be a gas displacement effect that will kill performance. With all this being said what about the beating the fuel delivery system is gonna get. The hydrogen will permeate through all the componets. Some parts will just crack due embrittlement, and parts exposed to high temps may suffer hydrogen attack. And thats when H2 recombines with carbon molecules and make methane molecules that are too big to diffuse through the metal. So they fill the gaps in the structre and get pressurized untill it goes pop...and makes a crack.

Lets talk about H2 fires....yeah OK you can have a secondary fire, most likely class A, or B. You can detect it, and put it out. But the primary H2 fire will keep burning, like I said its invisible and hot as hell. So now you risk severely injuring yourself trying to put out the fire. The only way to see it is with a flame detector, or thermal imager.

And no there is no way to contain it without this happening. The best solution they have for equipment thats constantly exposed to H2 (ie machinery that produces extracts it) is to constantly give it a acid bath, followed by a baking it. untill you have to replace it. Keep in mind these are for componets that aren't kept at a high pressure.

Now there are things that are resistant to all of the crap associated with H2, off the top of my head all I can think of is tungsten.


Sorry MrCool, Im at work and Einstein got me off track

[FNKNSTN]

Originally Posted by TFord

Who's this smart guy?

If you want to get technical the most practical way to use hydrogen for combustion is in its liquid form. The volumetric energy for H2 in gas state is too low, so you'd have to use a whole hell of a lot of it to get any where. Even in liquid form its energy density is far less than gas

So now lets talk about H2 in liquid state. I don't know what pressure is used but they use a jet engine to pressurize it. It also must be kept at -423.166 F. Even under these (ideal) conditions it still diffuses through any container at 1% a day. Now it will need to be a "direct injection" system or there will be a gas displacement effect that will kill performance. With all this being said what about the beating the fuel delivery system is gonna get. The hydrogen will permeate through all the componets. Some parts will just crack due embrittlement, and parts exposed to high temps may suffer hydrogen attack. And thats when H2 recombines with carbon molecules and make methane molecules that are too big to diffuse through the metal. So they fill the gaps in the structre and get pressurized untill it goes pop...and makes a crack.

Lets talk about H2 fires....yeah OK you can have a secondary fire, most likely class A, or B. You can detect it, and put it out. But the primary H2 fire will keep burning, like I said its invisible and hot as hell. So now you risk severely injuring yourself trying to put out the fire. The only way to see it is with a flame detector, or thermal imager.

And no there is no way to contain it without this happening. The best solution they have for equipment thats constantly exposed to H2 (ie machinery that produces extracts it) is to constantly give it a acid bath, followed by a baking it. untill you have to replace it. Keep in mind these are for componets that aren't kept at a high pressure.

Now there are things that are resistant to all of the crap associated with H2, off the top of my head all I can think of is tungsten.


Sorry MrCool, Im at work and Einstein got me off track

Pops feels the need to prove himself to some internet kid ;-) Been thirty or so years since you left high school I bet. Congratulations!

And yes, like I said, it would be compressed and liquified. It "must be kept at -423.166 F".... yeah, ok Pops, or it will just evaporate like liquid nitrogen or dry ice at room temperature. So you're telling me that right now there is NO WAY of containing liquified Hydrogen? You're telling me that if I have a proper license, that I could not obtain a tank of liquified Hydrogen?

"1% a day" - that's pennies. I'm sure I lose more gasoline to evaporation and an old gas cap on my 77 Chevy.

"Some parts will just crack due embrittlement" - Yes, that's what happens when things get reallllllllllllly cold. That's why you need to use the proper materials. Sorry Pops, the plastic gas tank that you were imagining would not work on a liquified Hydrogen powered car.

"Lets talk about H2 fires...." - Ok, #1 - you might be able to hear (maybe not you, gramps) the escaping gas. #2 - you would see a big chunk of 'ice' forming around the leak. #3 - if it caught a flame, you'd hear it, you'd be able to feel it, you'd see something else burning around it, and you'd smell whatever was burning, and there would be smoke coming off whatever else is burning.

"So now you risk severely injuring yourself trying to put out the fire. The only way to see it is with a flame detector, or thermal imager." - Only a tardo would try something like that. But you're old-school like that ;-) Just take a shovel and throw some dirt on it gramps! I don't need to see the "invisible flame" to know that something is burning. I'd just be a hero and plug the leak with the tip of my finger

"Now there are things that are resistant to all of the crap associated with H2, off the top of my head all I can think of is tungsten." - Yessir Abuelo, and that is what would have to be used. And no filling your red plastic container at the pump when you run out!

Get back to work gramps. You've got your retirement to think about. Don't let your boss catch you telling off some kiddo on the internet while you're on the clock!

[leviticus88]

The answer to hydrogen safety is storing it as WATER. Not as pure hydrogen gas!!!

For example: Instead of separting the hydrogen from water in a big factory and transporting the un-safe hydrogen to "fill" stations, the hydrogn can be produced in the car it's self!

Fill the tank with water, use an elctrolysis device in the vehicle that uses electricty to strip the hydrogen from the oxygen in the water and then combust the hydrogen AND the oxygen (plus outside air) inside the motor to propel the vehicle. The by product is heat, water and motion.

Theoretically this process could be very efficient because the byproduct of the combustion (water) could be re stored and re stripped in the electrolysis device to be reused.

The down side is water is heavy and a lot of the energy being produced by the motor will be used to create electricity to power the elctrolysis device.

The link below is of a hybrid: gasoline/hydrogen car using some of these principles and with twin turbos makes over 450hp! You fill it up with water and gasoline. The technology just needs to be explored and researched to reduce costs.
http://www.hybridcars.com/fuels/hydr...car-25231.html

I worry about this concept though because instead of using oil to power our vehicles, we would be using the most vitale resource we have, WATER! We can still survive if we deplet the oil supply, but if we use all the fresh water in dry desert areas or drought stricken regions to power vehicles, how do we drink, and cook, and survive?

I believe climate change is BS but I like the idea of building an infastructure deigned without the use of foreign (Idiotic and dangerous) regimes oil supplies! I just wish the present administration would let the FREE MARKET system do this and stop trying to force it with trillions of tax money we don't have.

[MrCool]

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

Pops feels the need to prove himself to some internet kid ;-)

Debate about it, just take out all all the BS in between.

Like this BS:

Originally Posted by leviticus88

Get back to work gramps. You've got your retirement to think about. Don't let your boss catch you telling off some kiddo on the internet while you're on the clock!

Now back to the subject:
Does H2 gas crack metals due to a chemical property, or becuse it's just cold? If it is because it is cold, couldn't you have some sort of heating device/insulator?

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

that's pennies. I'm sure I lose more gasoline to evaporation and an old gas cap on my 77 Chevy.

True, but H2 is expensive to make in the first place also.

I think, overtime, they could develop an electrical sensor or circuit that would automatically notify the driver of an H2 leak, and could possibly give you options for a nessesary action. Besides, I would agree with leviticus88:

Originally Posted by leviticus88

The answer to hydrogen safety is storing it as WATER. Not as pure hydrogen gas!!!

Originally Posted by leviticus88

For example: Instead of separting the hydrogen from water in a big factory and transporting the un-safe hydrogen to "fill" stations, the hydrogn can be produced in the car it's self!

Originally Posted by leviticus88

Theoretically this process could be very efficient because the byproduct of the combustion (water) could be re stored and re stripped in the electrolysis device to be reused.

That would be ideal, if they could create a car that would reuse the byproducts of its own combustion.

[TFord]

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

Pops feels the need to prove himself to some internet kid ;-) Been thirty or so years since you left high school I bet. Congratulations!

Get back to work gramps. You've got your retirement to think about. Don't let your boss catch you telling off some kiddo on the internet while you're on the clock!

The anonymity of the internet makes people tough...lol FYI im 25

Originally Posted by leviticus88

The answer to hydrogen safety is storing it as WATER. Not as pure hydrogen gas!!!

For example: Instead of separting the hydrogen from water in a big factory and transporting the un-safe hydrogen to "fill" stations, the hydrogn can be produced in the car it's self!

That would work, but I dont know how "efficient" it would be the energy density is so small you'd need a lot of H2. It also uses quite a bit of energy to split water. Thats how we make O2 on subs electrolosis, and it has to be well sealed, and DC powered. whenever there is a 2:1 ratio of H2, and O2 there is an explosive reaction...so like getting into a car accident would have me worried. lll have to check out that link

Originally Posted by MrCool

Debate about it, just take out all all the BS in between.

Like this BS:


Now back to the subject:
Does H2 gas crack metals due to a chemical property, or becuse it's just cold? If it is because it is cold, couldn't you have some sort of heating device/insulator?

True, but H2 is expensive to make in the first place also.

I think, overtime, they could develop an electrical sensor or circuit that would automatically notify the driver of an H2 leak, and could possibly give you options for a nessesary action. Besides, I would agree with leviticus88:

That would be ideal, if they could create a car that would reuse the byproducts of its own combustion.

H2 cracks most metals because of its size, its got the smallest atomic mass. So think of it like helium, how it can diffuse through a balloon. H2 can do the same thing with metal. the problem is that while its passing through, make materials a lot weaker because H2 gathers in the voids of the material creating pressure from within it

yeah its expensive as hell. it costs more to make H2 throught electrolysis than it does to make gas. The thing that Im most worried about is having car accidents with H2 powered cars, given H2's tendancy to spontaneously combust when combined with air.

[TFord]

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

Pops feels the need to prove himself to some internet kid ;-) Been thirty or so years since you left high school I bet. Congratulations!

And yes, like I said, it would be compressed and liquified. It "must be kept at -423.166 F".... yeah, ok Pops, or it will just evaporate like liquid nitrogen or dry ice at room temperature. So you're telling me that right now there is NO WAY of containing liquified Hydrogen? You're telling me that if I have a proper license, that I could not obtain a tank of liquified Hydrogen?

"1% a day" - that's pennies. I'm sure I lose more gasoline to evaporation and an old gas cap on my 77 Chevy.

No my point was that even at -423.166F you still loose 1% a day. if you want to keep LH2 a liquid you have to maintain it at that temp. So if you want a LH2 powered car it will need a cryogenic system to maintain that temp. For me accidents worry me the most

"Some parts will just crack due embrittlement" - Yes, that's what happens when things get reallllllllllllly cold. That's why you need to use the proper materials. Sorry Pops, the plastic gas tank that you were imagining would not work on a liquified Hydrogen powered car.

No actually the process starts as soon as a susceptible metal comes in contact with concentrated H2

"Lets talk about H2 fires...." - Ok, #1 - you might be able to hear (maybe not you, gramps) the escaping gas. #2 - you would see a big chunk of 'ice' forming around the leak. #3 - if it caught a flame, you'd hear it, you'd be able to feel it, you'd see something else burning around it, and you'd smell whatever was burning, and there would be smoke coming off whatever else is burning.

No you wouldn't see Ice, because it would combust as soon as it mixed with air, expecially at such a concentrated level.

"So now you risk severely injuring yourself trying to put out the fire. The only way to see it is with a flame detector, or thermal imager." - Only a tardo would try something like that. But you're old-school like that ;-) Just take a shovel and throw some dirt on it gramps! I don't need to see the "invisible flame" to know that something is burning. I'd just be a hero and plug the leak with the tip of my finger

To stop that type of fire you have to secure the H2 source (cut the car off in this case) and let it burn its self out.

..

[FNKNSTN]

Originally Posted by MrCool

Does H2 gas crack metals due to a chemical property, or becuse it's just cold? If it is because it is cold, couldn't you have some sort of heating device/insulator?

Insulation would be the answer.

True, but H2 is expensive to make in the first place also.

It is... right now.

I think, overtime, they could develop an electrical sensor or circuit that would automatically notify the driver of an H2 leak, and could possibly give you options for a nessesary action. Besides, I would agree with leviticus88:

Absolutely. Just as in any industry (like my job) that deals with compressed gasses... there are pressure meters, and alarms that go off when you're getting a high pressure reading (during the extreme heat of the day) and a rapid pressure drop (if there's a leak, or a surge in the system).

That would be ideal, if they could create a car that would reuse the byproducts of its own combustion.

Put water in the tank... separate the molecules... burn the hydrogen/oxygen mixture... recapture the water exhaust, and repeat.

Originally Posted by TFord

The anonymity of the internet makes people tough...lol FYI im 25

Seriously? Yikes! I feel sorry for you.