Perceptions Die... OK Say Again Y Foreign is Better

[rikelme90]

gm> ford
you can talkk about HP!!, torque and looks all you want
but when it comes to getting you from point a to point b with out given you a world of problems you go with gm

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I agree that Hummer buyers probably buy because it represents an all-American brand, but SUV buyers tend to have more loyalty to less expensive products. Off-roaders will be more likely to buy a truck, so I'm feeling confident that GM can recoup the vast majority of its lost sales from Hummer. Since it was never treated like a core brand, Hummer never really had a shot with GM, which I always felt was disappointing. I wanted GM to incorporate Hummer as a sort of Jeep alternative, with a smaller model to compete more directly with the Wrangler. This did not come to fruition, so that sort of product would have to come from Chevrolet or GMC if it ever returns to the GM lineup.

Agreed. And I still see it as plausible for GM to turn GMC into that exact thing.. a Jeep.. and now Hummer competitor. Tackling it from two different positions.. one Professional/Luxo (Because the Escalade does not make Caddy an SUV division), and the other Off-Road capable.. GMC could be truly differentiated from Chevy while competing directly with Hummer (Chinese) and Jeep (Italians).. and it should be touted as such in the marketing campaign. "The REAL American Off-Road SUV".

Let's remember that GM used to sell the Tracker as a small SUV platform as Geo and Chevrolet brands. In summary, you are probably right to point out that the American buyers who do want to keep their money in America will probably stop buying the big, American SUVs from Hummer since it is not longer an American brand; however, we should remember that Chrysler has been touting itself as American despite its long-standing import status as owned by Daimler, Cerberus, and now Fiat. It might just be possible for some Chinese communists to advertise the Hummer brand as American, despite the obvious fact that this sale would probably have been investigated by the House Committee on Un-American Activities decades ago.

Read my above statements

Pontiac could have been great. If I had the authority, I would have made Pontiac the sporty division that it always wanted to be. I would have revived the GTO and Firebird. The Trans Am had licensing issues, so that may have never returned in its original form, but the Firebird Formula would return with a vengeance as a Camaro sibling. The Cobalt SS would be ported to Pontiac as a high-performance compact with flashy styling specifically designed to get the young import crowd to move to the domestic market. It would feature a wide variety of aftermarket options from leading companies, including rims, tires, performance parts, and additional warranties. A similar hatchback would be developed to catch that import crowd that drools over the xB and Cube. The Solstice would stay in its current form. Pontiac would produce a performance truck to compete in rally racing events. With a drag-racing GTO, a road-worthy Cobalt alternative in both coupe, a show-winning hatchback, a track-dominant Firebird, and an off-roading truck, the Pontiac brand would have dominant products in each performance division. Unfortunately, I am not empowered to make these decisions, and the research and development would cost tens of millions. It is very understandable that this did not come to pass.

WHO THE HELL DIDS PONTIAC compete with? BMW... outta their Price range... MAZDA or Nissan??? Mostly FWD and AWD... SO I pigeoned-holed it to NOBODY... it rode out the storm during a huge move to be as Fuel Efficient as possible with what is generally thought of as being the most second most inefficient way of driving... RWD. Looking at G6 sales tells a nice story. Looking at Mazda 6s, and Nissan Altimas tells the same. FWD Performance is nothing to be ashamed of.

What Pontiac should have done was make a move to get the AWD system from Saab. That would have given GM a Performance group on 2 different fronts. Caddy at the Top end and Pontiac on the bottom. The RWD vehicles remaining the Solstice and G8, with the G5, G6, and G3 as the FWD/AWD Runners. My Believe is that the Vibe should have been renamed the "Vibe G3" as a hold over with the G3 name taking over in 2012 when it would hopefully have gotten redone on Delta. The G5 and it would be platform mates. The Ecotec would essentially mimic the Cobalt/Cruze but with a slight 10-15HP bump across the board. The G6 would do the same with the Malibu.

Bottom line is that Performance is not always RWD... The Camaro v6 kinda proves this.. as it will probably be getting very similar numbers as the Pontiac G6 GXP... which is FWD. It will be BEATEN... by it's lil brother the Cobalt SS. Consider that for a minute.

Hell my biggest GRIPE with Pontiac was that it had the Vibe without an Ecotec in it... and that for some strange reason they didn't fight to have a G5 GXP with the Cobalt SS's power.

I fear that Saab buyers will not stay with GM. Saab is very unlike most GM brands, and this seems to be the largest potential loss for GM.

IN the U.S. at least I see Saab as the absolute least of GM's retention issue. Most Saab buyers didn't even realize GM was the parent.. including my wife before I told her.. "Sure.. I don't have a issue givin U the money for that 9-3Aero.. it is a GM after all" I was met with a "Seriously??? I never knu that."

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by rikelme90

gm> ford
you can talkk about HP!!, torque and looks all you want
but when it comes to getting you from point a to point b with out given you a world of problems you go with gm

[MCPOAJ]

to the guy that had the rant in bold those genesissy's aren't what they were made out to be for ****s sakes a stock ss/sc could stomp one

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by MCPOAJ

to the guy that had the rant in bold those genesissy's aren't what they were made out to be...

bu-bu-bu....wasn't in the car of the year? Oh, the humanity!!!

[MCPOAJ]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

bu-bu-bu....wasn't in the car of the year? Oh, the humanity!!!

i've always wanted to call them genesissy's

[five-oh]

Sheeple!! Like, when you go to a drive thru at the bank and there are five lanes open. 4 of them are empty and the other one has 5 cars lines up waiting.

I love it when people can't think for themselves.

[Zhawk]

As much as I may get beaten up about this...


A lot of brand loyalty is like sports team loyalty. Once you get into a given brand/sprts team, you tend to build up a emotional loyalty to them. Its not always logical but often goes to a MUCH deeper personal level than most people can explain.
As for me, I am a big fan of GM because they have provided me with good solid, enjoyable vehicles and I see nothing out there to override and replace what I currently enjoy.

My examples and the reason I enjoy GM and will give them first look for a long time to come sit with my current vehicles.
71 Camaro RS Z/28 - love it in every way
72 Skylark Convertible - be solid, smooth, and nothing like those looks from other drivers
Have to say, that driving a classic is nothing that can be replicated in any modern car
87 IROC Z/28 - (wife's dragracing car)
90 Corvette Convetible
95 Camaro Z/28 - started Chevy/GM love
98 Regal GS - come on 217K miles, drives like new, and hey, supercharged winter beater?
99 Silverado K1500 - Hauls both the toys and @$$
02 Corvette - remiinded me today of what a sport car should be

I'm not saying that there aren't other worthy makes and models out there, but since I have never been disappointed, I will give GM the nod in a tie or close choice.

As for Ford, I have watched them get better and better. They may not be my first choice but I truly hope they continue to improve and help raise the bar.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

OHC vs OHV Weight... SIZE

People often fail to see in the Liters vs Liters argument is WEIGHT and SIZE... specifically when engines are "dressed..." which is really the only way to run them anyway.. For example...

In a comparison somewhere between the weight of the LS7 7.0L, LSA 6.2L S/C versus the Ford 5.4L S/C... the LS7 was lighter. In fact, if I remember correctly the LSA weighed in at approx 490lbs...including the addition of a SuperCharger ... the LS7... 458 pounds, while the Supercharged 5.4L in the GT500 I could swear weighs about 740lbs...

OHV engines long have and always will represent a smaller, overall package size than OHC engines can for obvious reasons. That said, the weight disparity is always blown out of proportion.

Example? The 4.6L SOHC/3-valve V8 weighs about what the 6.3L LS3 does fully dressed. Since we already that the new 5.0L weighs within pounds of what the outgoing 4.6L 3-valve does we have situation where engines with relatively similar power ratings aren't every far apart. If you try and match the LS engine in terms of overall displacement you'll gain some weight on the Ford engine to be sure, but it wouldn't be a huge disparity. A well designed OHC motor will remain relatively close to the overall weight of an OHV design.

As such, and as I said earlier, the real advantage for the OHV setup in this regard is packaging.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by syr74

OHV engines long have and always will represent a smaller, overall package size than OHC engines can for obvious reasons. That said, the weight disparity is always blown out of proportion.

Example? The 4.6L SOHC/3-valve V8 weighs about what the 6.3L LS3 does fully dressed. Since we already that the new 5.0L weighs within pounds of what the outgoing 4.6L 3-valve does we have situation where engines with relatively similar power ratings aren't every far apart. If you try and match the LS engine in terms of overall displacement you'll gain some weight on the Ford engine to be sure, but it wouldn't be a huge disparity. A well designed OHC motor will remain relatively close to the overall weight of an OHV design.

As such, and as I said earlier, the real advantage for the OHV setup in this regard is packaging.

I Need more info on the upcoming 5.0L

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Zhawk

As much as I may get beaten up about this...


A lot of brand loyalty is like sports team loyalty. Once you get into a given brand/sprts team, you tend to build up a emotional loyalty to them. Its not always logical but often goes to a MUCH deeper personal level than most people can explain.
As for me, I am a big fan of GM because they have provided me with good solid, enjoyable vehicles and I see nothing out there to override and replace what I currently enjoy.

My examples and the reason I enjoy GM and will give them first look for a long time to come sit with my current vehicles.
71 Camaro RS Z/28 - love it in every way
72 Skylark Convertible - be solid, smooth, and nothing like those looks from other drivers
Have to say, that driving a classic is nothing that can be replicated in any modern car
87 IROC Z/28 - (wife's dragracing car)
90 Corvette Convetible
95 Camaro Z/28 - started Chevy/GM love
98 Regal GS - come on 217K miles, drives like new, and hey, supercharged winter beater?
99 Silverado K1500 - Hauls both the toys and @$$
02 Corvette - remiinded me today of what a sport car should be

I'm not saying that there aren't other worthy makes and models out there, but since I have never been disappointed, I will give GM the nod in a tie or close choice.

As for Ford, I have watched them get better and better. They may not be my first choice but I truly hope they continue to improve and help raise the bar.

Sounds like GM has treated U well... Here's my list thus far:

2009 CTS-V
2008 Corvette Z51
2007 Tahoe LTZ
2006 G6 3.5L


2004 Grand Prix GT
2005 9-3 Aero
current cars...........LOVE 'EM..They are all my Sweetie Pies...

2005 STS 4.6L... Smooches Lovely... I won't forget we had.
Corvette C5... I miss U MaryJane
1979 Corvette L82
1995 Corvette LT1
2001 Yukon (Thermostat went up at 105K (?) Replaced for $20, bought a Tahoe at 121K)
1996 Lumina (blew Head Gasket at 265K miles, fixed for like $500, traded it in for G6 3K miles later)
1992 Protege ( Wheel Bearings ceased, Cataclytic Con. SHOT, Tranny a mess...but BOy was it a fun car )
1989 Tercel ( left me starnded on 83 South..engine blew completely, Bearings gone)
1996 Camry (Engine Ceased up on me...Sludge. Battled with Toyota to buy back..WON)
1994 Camry ( had it for 2 weeks and sold it )
2000 Trooper
1993 Trooper (Starter went Up in a Ruby Tuesday parking lot . Bought a starter..dropped two bolts, put new starter in, drove off the parking lot)
1995 325i ( Elctrical issues galore, Engine just STOPPED, locked up. To much to fix, sold for the Body and tranny)
1990 Iroc Z
1984 Celebrity
1990 Reatta
1986 Celebrity
1983 Z28 (Engine overheated and died. I put a Racing Fan on the Pulley and attempted to drive from Balto. to Ocean City, MD.My dad was peed at me, because he told me not to do it...I was 18 )
1976 Camaro
1977 Regal
1965 Mustang convert
1971 Spitfire
1964 Starfire
1973 Caprice Classic convert ( left the top unlatched and went racing up 695W at about 90MPH...top flew off causing some serious HARD breaking...no body was hurt)
1994 Nissan 240 (electrical Issues GALORE, Windows would go up..but not come down..would come down, but only go up in the morning...sold about 6 months after I got it)
1990 Nissan 200sx
1963 Impala SS
1969 Chevelle SS convert

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

So U seemingly see the illogical view that there was any real difference in say... a Pontiac and a Chevy besides styling?

Basically I buy what I like.. That is all.
Overall I have had many many more Chevrolets than Pontiacs or Saturns..
Chevys...27 (20 New 7 Used)
Too many to name but everythig from Corvairs to Corvettes, pickups and SUV's.

Pontiacs...5 (3 New 2 Used)
2 Fieros
1 Gran Prix
2 Sunfires

Saturns....6 (5 new 1 Used)
1 SC-2
1 SW-1
1 Vue
1 Aura
2 Skys

GMC........1
Sierra Sportside pickup

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

I Need more info on the upcoming 5.0L

Don't we all ... as it is, there is a good deal of speculation and assumptions (much of it may be correct) but solid facts a little rare at the moment. Sorta like 2010 Camaro info a year and a half ago.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Stupid internet was down. Can you believe there are only 2 satelittes over Iraq to pull a signal from. I can't wait to get back home.


Anyways, whether Ford is on a roll from perception or true hard numbers (I choose the latter) it is quite apparent they are doing something right. Differences in MPG's has nothing to do with that statement. Toyota and however you feel about them has nothing to do with that statement, but Ford and GM are snagging some customers from them. The increase in market share alone supports my statement.

So talk about Toyota and MPG's and whatever else you feel appropriate, but to say "Ford is not on a roll is simply not true."