2013 Mustang GT500 MEGA THREAD

[cbass]

The car feels lighter and quicker. It shifts better. The steering is solid and has better road feel than my Camaro. They run P-Zeros on these cars too, so the tires aren't a factor, but the Mustang feels more agile on the hairpins. The interior seems to be of better quality than my Camaro. In another post I'd previously stated that I thought my Camaro felt "delicate". The Mustang, on the contrary, feels like I could beat the living crap out of it and it would come back for more.

My Camaro has more visual appeal. It turns more heads than a Mustang would, unless I were to buy a Boss or GT500. But I'm not a "car show" guy. I'm a drag racer, and I like taking things up to 140 MPH when I feel like it. Not that the Camaro doesn't have the same ability, but the Mustang has a 3.73:1 ratio, and a solid axle that I can launch hard without fear of damage. The Boss comes with Trackey, which basically gives you factory electric exhaust cutouts, and programmable cam timing. Push-button lumpy cam on demand. Wow.

I'm still on the fence at this point, but shame on me for buying the Camaro without driving the Mustang first. The SS and GT are equal in price, but after road testing the GT, I left thinking that the Mustang has more bang for the buck. If I can make the numbers work, I just might make the jump. Tough call.

Yes. Shame on you. I test drive all the cars I am interested in as well as renting them.

I agree that the mustang has more bang for the buck. The camaro is getting expensive.

The mustang with the live axle is also the better drag race platform. If you were going for that, then you should have seriously looked at the mustang. The camaro with the IRs is better suited for everyday street riding on pot hole roads.

I disagree on the transmission. At least if you talk about the manual. The mustang I test drove had a much notchier tranmission than the camaro. It also popped out of gear on me. I am a believer that the MT82 Transmission issues on the mustang are a real problem.

I liked the clutch on the mustang better as well.

I felt more comfortable in the camaro and I liked it better than the mustang mostly because it had more interior room. I also liked the LS3 much better than the coyote motor.

[jrc1122]

I say drive/ buy what you like. If you like both, go with what earns more check marks on your checklist and go with that.

I went with the Mustang, because I've grown impressed more and more with Ford and I spend tons (I mean TONS) of time behind the windshield on the HWY, and I wanted something more appealing and comfortable to me on the interior, not to mention the 5.0 engine truly is a great engine..

I honestly didn't even drive the SS, because every time I sat in one at the dealership I just "didn't feel it" ya know. I always had an unsatisfied feeling when sitting in it. I'm sure its a monster on the street just like the Mustang, but I wanted more than that,, and for me, the clear choice was the Mustang GT 5.0.. The 2013s have more HP (than the 2012 GTs), and the 4.2 inch LCD computer screen on the dash is just cool. I won't like, I kinda wish I had that. But I got a great deal on a 2012, so it made more sense to go with the 2012.

[RallySS]

I'm agreeing on the Mustang manual transmission issues, seems like they built a great car around a crappy manual transmission as far as the GT, maybe the Boss if it has the same trans. That, and ours has a 100k drive train warranty vs their 60k. All in all, the Camaro is meant to be more refined for several environments, not just the drag strip. I also cannot agree on the solid rear vs the IR, both are great, and I haven't heard anyone say ours cannot handle abuse like the solid. I test drove all cars I could before pulling the trigger on mine, and have no second thoughts as I realize I can enjoy mine all the time, all road conditions, most race conditions instead of only on the straight away.

I have to agree the Mustang does feel lighter, and is a great bit of fun to drive, steering is nice, clutch has a better feel. The Camaro feels "heavier" and much larger, so just like the last post, go with what feels right. I personally like the heavy car feel but can appreciate the feeling of the Mustang.

[cbass]

I also cannot agree on the solid rear vs the IR, both are great, and I haven't heard anyone say ours cannot handle abuse like the solid.

IRS is more complicated, heavy, and generally weaker for performance use. Here is the camaro IRS and breaking points from hot rod magazine:

The V8 Camaro's IRS (independent rear suspension) has 218mm (8.58-inch) rear gears and a clutch-type limited-slip diff. The gears are unique. Stock ratios are 3.27 or 3.45:1; Richmond has 3.70 and 4.10:1 ratios. The current stock rear is marginal for serious high-perf use.

Rear suspension flex (450 hp): IPS reports toe-arm failures as low as 25 to 50 hp over stock. Pfadt has stiffeners; BMR offers adjustable units. Excessive wheelhop can damage the rear trailing arms, contributing to differential problems (Pfadt and LPE have upgrades). Hotchkis sells a Chassis Max Brace to control unwanted suspension movement.

Rear subframe flex (475 hp): The stock subframe bushings allow excess cradle movement, causing lost power and bad traction. Replace with solid or polyurethane bushings for better rear-cradle durability and improved handling. Pfadt is one source.

Gears fail (500-plus horsepower): Only a three-series Posi carrier is available, so the pinion gets really small as gear ratio increases. Tire type and driving style influence longevity big time.

Halfshafts break (wheelhop, 500 to 600 hp): The more severe the wheelhop, the sooner the drive axles break. The stock computer calibration limits axlehop, but that also limits performance. Knowing when to back off the throttle is the cheap fix, followed by lighter-weight wheels and tires (because they have less inertia), and ultimately stouter aftermarket axles.

Posi problems (various): Jannetty says the stock Posi is weak: "It's prone to one-legger burnouts; the breakaway torque is way too low." Its Posi mods include upgraded clutch packs and a different preload spring. With a tuned Posi and revised internal gear preload, clearances, and patterns, the stock rear can take up to 750 hp, but 650 hp is more realistic for daily driving.

Driveshaft issues (over 5,000 rpm): Most report that the stock two-piece driveshaft is surprisingly robust. LPE's 9-second Camaro uses a shortened, stock, two-piece 'shaft, but with an improved center support to prevent the middle slider from twisting and binding. However, The Driveshaft Shop maintains that "anything with a slider is unstable over 5,000-rpm driveshaft speed." Its solutions range from a stouter two-piece unit with a CV joint or a one-piece aluminum or carbon-fiber 'shaft.

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/g...#ixzz1ux9Rucu0

The live rear axle on the mustang has its own issues.

Axle and differential failures (400 to 550 hp): Axles usually fail first, with diffs a close second. "Most times, a good launch can break the axles right in half," Burcham says. Extend 8.8 life expectancy with C-clip eliminator housing ends, 31-spline or greater aftermarket billet axles, a housing brace, a rear-cover girdle, and an aftermarket diff-either a Detroit Tru-Trac or (for racing only) a spool.

Bent rearend housing (650 hp): Svinicki says sticky tires can bend the housing. He prefers installing a drop-in Moser or Ford Racing 9-inch Ford rearend with 35-spline axles.

Other Issues
Wheelhop: Svinicki says the Mustang "wheelhops straight out of the factory" with the traction-control off, particularly on a stick shift. Upgraded Ford Racing Cobra Jet upper and lower control arms or aftermarket equivalents are needed to control this problem.


Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/g...#ixzz1uxAND2y8

[rez333]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

This week, the ZL1 is a roadcourse car vs the GT500. Last week, it was a 1/4 miler. Damn, I see the humiliation coming up soon.
Paint quality next?

don't be silly. Next is the square footage of carbon fiber on the hood.

[2010SLVRBULIT]

the exhaust sounds good.

[strych9]

Originally Posted by cbass

IRS is more complicated, heavy, and generally weaker for performance use. Here is the camaro IRS and breaking points from hot rod magazine:



The live rear axle on the mustang has its own issues.

This is great information. Thanks for posting it.

[cbass]

This is great information. Thanks for posting it

I am curious to see how the 1LE will hold up. It has many suspension upgrades that are on that list and they are coming from the 580 hp ZL1. I am thinking it should bump up the hp ratings in many of those categories. Time will tell.

[motorhead]

The 2013 GT is a great car. For me they fixed the cosmetic problems the made the earlier ones not so desirable in the back end. The interior is very nice. I would recommend getting the premium interior up grade. It's really nice. Good luck to you. If one car was right for everyone they would only make one.

[vroomapunk]

I STARE out my office window all day at my car, I guarantee I would not do the same with a mustang.

I also wouldnt want to have to feel like I have to say, I know its not good looking but look at my time slip or come to the strip with me, then you will like my car.

I got the car for me, but I do like to show off, so looks are very important. And the camaros times and numbers are appealing enough, and saying 400hp and 6.2l etc impresses enough people. What does a car length mean to me on the street? nothing.

Thats my take on it, I also love this C5 community, sounds silly but it would make a difference in me choosing a mustang

[lil_chef]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

As has been mentioned often in the Internet Age, "Too bad there's no 'sarcasm' key..."

All other things being equal, which of course they never are, what ultimately transmits power to the road (and HOW) are the tires. Everyone agree with that? Hope so...

Weight-to-Power:

ZL1 = 7.10 lb/hp (?); 305/35-20 = 23.0" total tread (as per GY)

Z06 = 6.33 lb/hp; 325/30-19 = 23.1" total tread (Optional 335/25-30s = 25.0")

ZR1 = 5.26 lb/hp; 335/25-20 = 25.0" total tread

Forget Manufacturer, and weight distribution, and tread patterns, and UTQG for a moment...

GT500 = 5.77 lb/hp; 285/35-20 = 21.3" total tread (10.8 + 10.5, as per GY)

Under-tired? Let's compare it to its closest Weight-to-Power competitor, shall we?

2010 Viper non-ACR = 5.76; 345/30-19 = 26.4" total tread NO ELECTRONICS!

Draw your own conclusions...

Now, I'm gonna push back the Barcalounger, put my feet up, grab a tasty beverage, listen to some Paul Hardcastle (I recommend "Serene"), and wait for something "encouraging" from Dearborn/'Ring/VIR/Milan...

a more telling way to look at it:

The GT500 makes 631 ft-lb of torque, has a first gear ratio of 2.66 and a 3.31 final drive ratio. so about "5,555" ft-lb of torque makes it to the wheels.

The ZL1 makes 556 ft-lb, same 2.66 first gear and a 3.73 final drive ratio. so 5,516 ft-lb makes it to the wheels.

So the camaro has 40 less torque to the wheels and has more tire to deal with it. the GT500 will have more "trouble" getting off the line in comparison to the camaro but once it is moving the smaller contact patch offers less resistance and lends the GT500 an advantage from a roll.

So yes, given the stock tires the camaro will be easier to launch if the GT500 and ZL1 had the same suspension,wheels, weight, but different tire widths.

just looking at lb/hp is about as telling of performance as looking at the color of the car.

[ffrcobra_65]

young buyers always tend to make the same mistake between two almost equal performance cars. They tend to lean towards the "prettier" one not realizing that appearance is one of the most subjective things there is about a car. What you think looks good may not be the same to another set of eyes. Performance on the other hand is PERFORMANCE.

[cbass]

young buyers always tend to make the same mistake between two almost equal performance cars. They tend to lean towards the "prettier" one not realizing that appearance is one of the most subjective things there is about a car. What you think looks good may not be the same to another set of eyes. Performance on the other hand is PERFORMANCE.

Why is it a mistake? It depends on what your intended use is for the car. How many times are you going to take the car down the strip compared to how many times are you going to walk out to your car and think to yourself damn that's a good looking car. Who cares if it is subjective. It's your car so all it has to do is look good to you.

Performance is performance, but streetability is important too. The live axle may be superior on the strip and Ford may have done a great job with it on the track. However, unless you spend your time on the track or strip you are probably spending your time on pot hole ridden streets where the IRS is much easier to live with.

The mustang also has less interior room. Depending on your likes or dislikes this could be a problem. I personally am more comfortable in the camaro. Your experience may vary.

I also believe the LS3 is a better engine on the street because it is a stronger performer throughout the entire powerband and not just peak performance.



If this is my DD I am much more likely to live a 3.5K rpm and below than I am at high rpm on the strip. Again, the frequency it sees the strip versus the street makes a difference.

There is much more to a car than 1/4 mile times.

When you look at a classic car do you admire it for its performance or for its looks? Performance will be antiqued by the next generation. Looks can be timeless.

[tt335ci03cobra]

Lowdown; I think you did your math wrong. How did you go from 23" contact patch for the zl1 to only 23.1" for the z06 when you jumped up from 305's to 325's but then when you went from 325's to 335's on the zr1, you went from 23.1 to 25"?

In essence; on the 20mm difference between a zl1 and z06, your calculations netted .1" (albeit that 25.4mm= 1", so it's actually ~13/16") but then when you went from 325's on the z to 335's on the zr1 you gained 1.9" which is actually only 10mm and requistely ~2/5ths of an inch.

Are you going off the manufacturers listed widths in inches because I do know that manufacturers do run small or large so that would make more sense vs literally calculating the tire sizes via 25.4= 1".

Just with maths, I found

2 285's = 22.45"

2 305's = 24.01"

2 325's = 25.59"

2 335's = 26.37"

2 355's = 27.95"

Yes I see 1.56" more rubber on the camaro but it's also geared shorter (48 vs 62 in first; which is a 50% net, 33% gross difference meaning much less torque relative to speed/1000 rpms)

Also of note, 1.56 in comparison to 22.45" is only 6.9% net and in comparison to the 305's on the zl1, only 6.47%.

While its arguably skinnier than the 305's on a zl1, it's in no means skinny.

Now all said and down, for it's power to weight requirement yes it is skinny compared to its closest competitors but it's also geared very tall for its requisite torque figures. In real world applications, this gt500 will not have the issues that are 100% common place with the previous gt500's that only were capable of 45-48 in 1st gear.

Also, I didn't factor weight balance into this but here is another stat, the zl1 is 4120#'s (source car&driver march) , the gt500 is 270#'s lighter similarly equipped or 320#'s lighter in powerless recarro's/stock infotainment guise (3801lbs car&driver 2010 sept). Going with 300#'s for easy math, 300/3800 is 7.9% and out of 4120 it's 7.2%. That is a bigger difference than the tire size difference.

Now one car is 55/45 the other is 52.9/47.1 (march car&driver) so we'll say 55/45 vs 53/47 for easy math.

That's about a 3.6% difference front/rear balance considering 53/55 = .964 so honestly, adjust my numbers by that factor and you still come up with a reality that 20mm of tire doesn't make for for an end all be all in this cars performance.

Please stop carrying on about tire size, I hope this explanation shows you how trivial and base it is to attempt to manipulate such small numbers in light of such drastic changes. The ford techs have done a commendable job and should not be lamented for working with a tire that they are under contract with because of good years specially designed rubber from 2011 made specifically for this car.

Somebody asked earlier why doesn't ford commission a special tire for the gt500? They are in contract with this g2 that was designed specifically for the 2011 model.

All said, good to see the muscle wars raging on and I'm excited to see what the next gen z1 vs gt500 fight will be like. Exciting times.