Not Good, GM wants another 16 or is it 9 Billion to Survive.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by Supermans;298352its goal to finance over $500 billion in CRA business by 2010, about one third of loans anticipated to be financed by Fannie Mae during that period[/B

.[23][/U][/I]

From Wiki "The value of USA subprime mortgages was estimated at $1.3 trillion as of March 2007"

So the "requirement" was 500 billion in 2010 but we hit $1.3 Trillion in early 2007. Wow we are some over achievers when it comes to government mandates.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

Great way to start an argument it makes everything else seem more reputable.

Maybe I will start to just cut and paste from Daily Kos to make my arguments and then try to belittle someone that makes a case against it.

I'm not trying to start and argument or belittle you at all. There is so much information to go over for the reader who doesn't know what is going on that posting links to actual area's on the internet that are just stating facts as the Wikipedia source is doing seemed like the right thing to do. I pointed out where I think you were focusing your statement on and where I believe you were trying to infer by your post above that Fannie and Freddie had little to do with the crisis we are in. However I was pointing out that they had a much larger roll than you were making them out to be. The youtube link is accurate as there is not much to argue in barnie Francks and Nancu Pelosi's defense there..If you want to defend what they said back then and now, be my guest. However let's focus on a good clean discussion. I apologize if I said anything that offended and lets move on from this.

What is your take on the whole auto bailout? Do you feel the Union's should be bailed out? Or as some have suggested doing everything a Chapter 11 would accomplish without calling it Chapter 11 which is a way of keeping the Union intact and powerful.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

From Wiki "The value of USA subprime mortgages was estimated at $1.3 trillion as of March 2007"

So the "requirement" was 500 billion in 2010 but we hit $1.3 Trillion in early 2007. Wow we are some over achievers when it comes to government mandates.

Exactly, the Government always ends up doing more than what initially intended to do. In this case, we have one stimulus package passed by Bush then another passed by Obama, one auto loan bailout that has now become asking for a 2nd and perhaps will become a third if this one passes.. I don't see why we should continue this madness like Groundhog Day repeating history over and over..

Another thing is, I know I don't know everything and I'm not always right in everything I say. However I do try to be as fair to both sides of an argument as possible and try to look at the positives of both. I may be against the stimulus that just passed but I wasn't for doing nothing at all either. Ofcourse something had to be done if not we would face much more major problems..The same goes with the auto industry. I am against more bailouts but I do want to see the company succeed for the future and I feel Chapter 11 may be the only way. I do not buy the argument that the majority of Americans simply won't buy American at that point in time. And I do feel the bailout is really intended to keep the union alive which is counter productive and will only be met with asking for more bailouts to survive in the future..

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by Supermans

What is your take on the whole auto bailout? Do you feel the Union's should be bailed out? Or as some have suggested doing everything a Chapter 11 would accomplish without calling it Chapter 11 which is a way of keeping the Union intact and powerful.

Ok back on track.

I am starting to become more in favor of Chap 11 as long as the financing necessary is lined up before hand. For them to say that $18 Billion is all that they need and then come back and say the total could be $30 Billion. I am a little disappointed that they made the assumption that the market would be 11.5 million units and it appears that the market is headed for 9.5 million, that does not make me feel confident. And then to make the statement that funding might be necessary in 2013 and 2014 it is just starting to become too much for one company. I am becoming more in favor of not giving more money to GM and that the money should go to fixing the root of the problems. So that market volumes get back up to 12-13 million units.

As for the union, UAW will survive chap 11. I think that the contract is close to what non-union factories make so a judge would not force steep concessions. I doubt any judge would completely wipe out the legacy costs. And this is not directed at supermans but I am tired of reading about how legacy costs need to be wiped out completely. Healthcare was agreed to by both parties as part of the compensation package. I would liken it to someone telling you that you were paid to much last year and you need to give some of the money back.

I am not a huge fan of the entire stimulus but if both sides are not happy then that means it was a good compromise.

[War Eagle]

I just noticed this morning that Saab has filed for Chapter 11, this will help GM.

Steve

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

I just noticed this morning that Saab has filed for Chapter 11, this will help GM.

Steve

You'll probably see suitors come out of the woodwork for Saab now that they won't have any debt.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

I just noticed this morning that Saab has filed for Chapter 11, this will help GM.

Steve

I just read this on Autoblog and I am curious as to how this will work. Since Saab declared bankruptcy in Sweden and I didn't think Saab had much left in Sweden.

Maybe they will be able to get rid of some of Saab's debt so that they will be able to sell it.

Edit:After reading the press release it does look like the whole point of this action is to break Saab off into its own entity so that it would be easier to sell.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/20/s...s-1b/#comments

[War Eagle]

It looks like there is a very good chance that GM will follow suit with Chapter 11 pretty soon. The stock is really getting pounded this morning. Some analysts have already set a new target of 50 cents on the stock which is the lowest target you can assign.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/stor...FREE&cm_ite=NA

As the article states, Chapter 11 would be a good thing for GM and fix a lot of their problems. They could emerge a much smaller but very strong company.

Steve

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

As the article states, Chapter 11 would be a good thing for GM and fix a lot of their problems. They could emerge a much smaller but very strong company.

If they emerge at all...

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

If they emerge at all...

Now now....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Now now....

I know....shame on me.

I'm just still not convinced. And I just read GM's viability plan...that leaves me even more skeptical, because it's not "this will happen, that will happen, oh no the sky is falling!". They're now citing historical instances, and Chapter 11 tendancys. Of course they have a bias on the issue -- but they're concerns are certainly justified, and in this case...backed up.

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I know....shame on me.

I'm just still not convinced. And I just read GM's viability plan...that leaves me even more skeptical, because it's not "this will happen, that will happen". They're now citing historical instances, and Chapter 11 tendancys. Of course they have a bias on the issue -- but they're concerns are certainly justified, and in this case...backed up.

I don't see why they "have a bias" as they only care about their company surviving (and their pay check) and want to do whatever is necessary to restore success at GM.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by UCF w00t

I don't see why they "have a bias" as they only care about their company surviving (and their pay check) and want to do whatever is necessary to restore success at GM.

Maybe 'bias' was the wrong word...But what you said is exactly what I meant. They have the company's interests at heart (assumed), and in that mindset; they don't see bankruptcy as a good way to protect those interests...so they're going to paint it in a more negative light. That's all I meant.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

Ok back on track.

I am starting to become more in favor of Chap 11 as long as the financing necessary is lined up before hand. For them to say that $18 Billion is all that they need and then come back and say the total could be $30 Billion. I am a little disappointed that they made the assumption that the market would be 11.5 million units and it appears that the market is headed for 9.5 million, that does not make me feel confident. And then to make the statement that funding might be necessary in 2013 and 2014 it is just starting to become too much for one company. I am becoming more in favor of not giving more money to GM and that the money should go to fixing the root of the problems. So that market volumes get back up to 12-13 million units.

As for the union, UAW will survive chap 11. I think that the contract is close to what non-union factories make so a judge would not force steep concessions. I doubt any judge would completely wipe out the legacy costs. And this is not directed at supermans but I am tired of reading about how legacy costs need to be wiped out completely. Healthcare was agreed to by both parties as part of the compensation package. I would liken it to someone telling you that you were paid to much last year and you need to give some of the money back.

I am not a huge fan of the entire stimulus but if both sides are not happy then that means it was a good compromise.

It's ok, you can direct whatever criticism you want at me, I can take it I'm not for wiping out the Union completely and leaving everyone high and dry. However as long as the Union is spending money to get special favors from elected officials and so forth along with the other shenanigans they seem to do, that needs to stop. If you read my posts, Under Chapter 11, I am all for helping retirees and current employees that were promised all sorts of benefits however newer employees should fall under different benefits and so on that are more in line to be competitive with the foreign car companies that operate within the US and pay US wages. If all we do is bail out the Union completely thus saving GM from bankruptcy again, I just don't see it being the end all saving move and I do foresee us in the same situation only the Government and the Union would be in even more control at that point. I don't know all the answers and I don't claim to understand everything that goes on in the auto industry. Far from it. I am simply viewing this thru a lens of conservative and keeping our country a free Republic and away from socialism in any form..

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Maybe 'bias' was the wrong word...But what you said is exactly what I meant. They have the company's interests at heart (assumed), and in that mindset; they don't see bankruptcy as a good way to protect those interests...so they're going to paint it in a more negative light. That's all I meant.

They have their own interests at heart as well since lots of money and political ties are involved.