Perceptions Die... OK Say Again Y Foreign is Better

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Number 3

No, not quite and far from it when it was being developed.

Perhaps I should have said CURRENT CTS, which debuted in 2007. GM was not doing well at all... poised at that time for a comeback.. until the Fuel Crisis began... which some say popped the housing market... which lead to credit defaults... which maxed out out economy.

But to your post, Cmicasa, I appreciate your positivity. Not wanting to discuss details on this potential future GM product, lets get to brass tacks.

There will always be a contingent that will not accept a FWD flagship let alone a true FWD perforance car. Audi A8 and VW Phaeton are RWD. All Mercedes, all BMWs are RWD. The purists would accept nothing less. Look at Shnomac's thread on the FWD Camaro........and could you possibly imagine a ZR1 FWD/AWD? Nope.

The A8 and Phaeton are both actually FWD. They sell AWD version here in the U.S. but in Europe the A8 actually does sell a FWD version. Further more, BMW and Benz don't have the "benefit" of lower brands to draw platforms from. GM, Toyota, and VW do.

Don't get me wrong, I love the A6..........and the A6 is based on the A4 paltform. They make for truly outstanding, pleasing and luxurious automobiles.

The A6 is on VW's C series-Platform, while the A4 is on the B-Series platform

But no one at GM would truly hint at a proposed FWD platform competing with an S-Class, 7-Series or A8.

Personally I think GM should make the platform AWD only, except for Livery... and call it Omega instead of Epsilon Premium. It's all about marketing if the car outperforms the competitors. The SRX, for instance, performs as well as it's competitors with RWD. Its only issue is that it shouldn't have the 3.0L.. only the 2.8L Turbo, 3.6L, and 3.6L Turbo

You guys are right, many if not most buyers of the RWD cars couldn't tell you the difference or describe the driving dynamics in detail. But the ones that know tell them in countless magazine reviews. And even though they may not know, they want what is recognized as the best.

But, Cmicasa, I'll just hope you are right, with a lot of assumptions about this product you refer to.

Damn... I hope so too.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by duder4thgen

I'd say there is a distinct difference in driving characteristic between a FWD and AWD/RWD cars. And I'm sorry, no matter what the FWD car, it just feels either cheap, boring, or both.

If GM is going to compete with the likes of the 7 series, the car is going to have to be world class in every single aspect. Using FWD would be like polishing a turd, you could get it shiny, but its still a turd underneath, and anyone taking a test drive would feel it right away.

It sounds like U are comparing FWD "normal" cars to RWD "Performance or Luxo cars."

Seriously drive a 9-3Turbo X against a 335i. U will see that your fears are not necessary. The issue is that most FWD vehicles are MAINSTREAM vehicles and are built to be non-extraordinary.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

My hero!

[BumbleDs]

Out of all the cars in the world, thats the one I want the most. I envy you sir.

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by lil_chef

HEY. i didnt say i agreed with him. which is why i will always buy the american variant of a car, unless there is no american equivalent. (I need a Mid engine American car ASAP)

im sure my dad was referring to the incident of offering (bond or stock holders) an extremely low price for their stake in the company. and then gave a fraction of the company to the union workers.

^im not 100% on the explanation above so if you want to correct me go ahead.

The federal bankruptcy judge and the current government administration decided who got what, not GM. It is true that the bondholders were treated unfairly (and not according to well established bankruptcy procedures), and it is embarrasing that one of the primary parties to hold the company back all these years is rewarded (the union). But none of that was decided by GM.

[duder4thgen]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

It sounds like U are comparing FWD "normal" cars to RWD "Performance or Luxo cars."

Seriously drive a 9-3Turbo X against a 335i. U will see that your fears are not necessary. The issue is that most FWD vehicles are MAINSTREAM vehicles and are built to be non-extraordinary.

Actually, the 9-3 Turbo X is/was only AWD.

There aren't really many FWD vehicles built to be extraordinary because, well, its pretty pointless when you can just go either AWD/RWD.

Its not really fear, its experience. Every single FWD vehicle I've ever driven has that same either cheap or boring feeling. It just comes down to the fact that you can't replace the feeling of being pushed with being pulled. That is a huge reason why BMW, MB, Audi's R8, and the GTR all are either AWD or RWD. FWD fundamentally feels like you are along for the ride. People in that price range are not okay with being along for the ride, they want to be in charge, they want control, just like AWD/RWD gives them.

Further evidence of this- Look at Caddy during the 90's and early 00's. Look at how many FWD vehicles they had, and then look at how 'great' the brand was doing. Then along came the RWD CTS...

You can take something sport tuned like a Cobalt SS, Neon SRT4; or something luxury like a Lexus, or something inbetween like Audi A4's and base A6's, you can improve it, you can cover it up, but you can't ever make it feel like a RWD vehicle.

In all honesty, do you think your CTS-V would be anywhere nearly as enjoyable if it were FWD?

[K-A]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

GROSS. That looks like TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INTERIORS attached together.

I gotta say, Ford right now has the cleaner image, and far more public support than GM, and justifiably so.

Let me start by saying I think utter brand loyalty is ridiculous, and being a true GM loyalist without have any bad things to say about the Company, is interesting to witness.

I bought a new Malibu because it was the BEST product that I could buy in terms of what I was looking for, and I love the new Camaro (aside from the interior), think the CTS and CTS-V's are great threats to Euro counterparts, Tahoe is my favourite large sized SUV, etc. I base my opinions on what tickles my fancy the best, but I don't overlook the negatives.

Gov. Motors sticking their hands into my pockets doesn't give me any reason to "root" for them, nor does the fact that poor products (some of the most unsafe and cheaply built cars in the last decade +), and terrible management have gotten them in the position they're in.

I gotta say, for you complete and utter loyalists, I would have loved to have been your child, as I'd be able to get away with a lot of goofy stuff, yet you'd overlook them in the name of love.

I want to see GM do well, and I'd buy some of their products over what Ford has, as they happen to be more attractive to me, but I have more respect for Ford, and other makes, as GM has a lot of work to do, and the fact that I and tons of other people who individually could give a crap about them, have to babysit them through their poor business decisions, puts them in a very unlikable position to the public.

To end this on a positive note, again, brand loyalty doesn't exist to me, but GM is making some great cars, the new Malibu is a great value and just surprises so many people when they see it ("wow, that's a Chevy Malibu? That looks great", etc.) and I eagerly await to see what GM will do with the next one, the CTS is something I'd LOVE to own as a DD, I'd probably buy it over a new C-Class as I think it's an overall BETTER car (styling aside as I'm not too crazy about its look), the Tahoe brothers and the new Hybrids are much more appealing to me than Ford's SUV's, the Camaro is HOT, although the Mustangs interior might sway me that way if I were in the market.... The new Buicks (I can't believe I'm saying this), although still not my cup of tea and need a couple more iterations to really get the styling right, are vastly nicer than previous models, and of course, the Corvette proves that GM can engineer a marvelous Sports Car that is hard to beat, along with the monsterous CTS-V.

[djinva]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

If you had any idea as to what's in GM's future product pipeline, you'd be surprised.

Please share!

[lil_chef]

Originally Posted by rayhawk

The federal bankruptcy judge and the current government administration decided who got what, not GM. It is true that the bondholders were treated unfairly (and not according to well established bankruptcy procedures), and it is embarrasing that one of the primary parties to hold the company back all these years is rewarded (the union). But none of that was decided by GM.

Thanks for clearing that up. maybe i can try explaining that to him so that when i visit to nashville i will have a beautiful CTS-V as a "rental car"

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by rayhawk

The federal bankruptcy judge and the current government administration decided who got what, not GM. It is true that the bondholders were treated unfairly (and not according to well established bankruptcy procedures), and it is embarrasing that one of the primary parties to hold the company back all these years is rewarded (the union). But none of that was decided by GM.

One thing I would like to clarify... and I HATE THE UAW... is that the unions were not necessarily "rewarded".. they were actually pacified with a percentage of the company via their retirement fund. Basically one has to look at it from a perspective that the UAW now have their retirement directly connected to the performance of the company.

As for the BondHolders... Eff Em. It all apart of the game. I was HEAVY in the market prior to July 2008. I sold damn near EVERYTHING, converting over to CASH and Real Estate (due to cheaper costs), realizing that in the end... Wall Street and Big Business is completely RIGGED to reward the top tier in society.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by duder4thgen

Actually, the 9-3 Turbo X is/was only AWD.

Srtill it is BASED off a FWD platform and the Haldex system is primarily FWD until the need comes when the AWD needs to kick in. I believe that in normal driving situations the 9-3X will be essentially 90% FWD to preserve fuel economy... when a corner comes in, or aggressive mannerisms emerge the XWD system starts pushing power to the appropriate wheels. Theoretically the Haldex system could push 100% of teh power to the REAR as well. This type of versatility, IMO makes RWD pointless if teh XWD system's costs are in line. It made it on a SAAB... certainly a Buick or Cadillac can absorb the costs.

There aren't really many FWD vehicles built to be extraordinary because, well, its pretty pointless when you can just go either AWD/RWD.



Its not really fear, its experience. Every single FWD vehicle I've ever driven has that same either cheap or boring feeling. It just comes down to the fact that you can't replace the feeling of being pushed with being pulled. That is a huge reason why BMW, MB, Audi's R8, and the GTR all are either AWD or RWD. FWD fundamentally feels like you are along for the ride. People in that price range are not okay with being along for the ride, they want to be in charge, they want control, just like AWD/RWD gives them.

I agree. And I stand by my opinion that the Premium Epsilon should be XWD for the consumer market, but maintain FWD for Livery/Fleet one since profit margins are lower.

Further evidence of this- Look at Caddy during the 90's and early 00's. Look at how many FWD vehicles they had, and then look at how 'great' the brand was doing. Then along came the RWD CTS...

Actually during the 90s Cadillac was considered higher on the Tier than Lexus, Audi, and BMW. It was normally considered to be a direct competitor to Mercedes and Jag. Where it lost prestige is when the market decided to go from pure Luxo to SPORT-LUXO. Cadillac was late to the game in 2002 with the CTS. It has finally caught up in some areas, but still lags when talking about a true Executive Class car like the XTS will hopefully be. XWD is the notion and I am sure.. based on my tests of XWD SRXs, Lacrosses, and 9-3Xs... it will be stellar when compared to the beautiful S-Class, ugly 7series, and "Fat XF" XJ

In all honesty, do you think your CTS-V would be anywhere nearly as enjoyable if it were FWD?

Not at all.. but I think it would be even better... XWD

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by BumbleDs

Out of all the cars in the world, thats the one I want the most. I envy you sir.

Envy me??? Naaaaah. We live in AMERICA. That part about "God shed his grace on thee" ... IS FOR REAL. We can ANYTHING we want:flag1:

[Sir Nuke]

Cmicasa, I am jsut wondering what your difinition of "a production vehicle" is? I am nopt trying to start anything, as I have a STS and I LOVE it.....just want to know how your are defining, or using the term.

wait a minute, I read your original post AGAIN, its the fastes V8 Sedan production car......sorry, my bad. I was thinking of something else. as there are quite a few faster production cars, but they are NOT V8's, and they are not Sedan's.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by lil_chef

I tend to use the ring as a benchmark for performance since i prefer road racing. i am not the kind of guy who likes to mash a pedal and go in a straight line (sorry for over simplifying it). the Ring is used as a benchmark because is has a large combination of turns and straights, measuring both straight line capability and twisty capability.

i am extremely confident that if the Caddy that was taken to the ring was a manual transmission it would have tied or beat the Porsche. i think i read somewhere the automatic Caddy hit its top speed multiple times (limiting its time).

Why didnt they go ahead and take the manual if they knew the Automatic would hit it's top speed, or did they not know which transmission better fit the car at the time?