MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I do but do you want to kill GM's current success in China - the fastest growing economy in the world? Don't think China wouldn't retaliate.

All the while China is sending tainted baby formula and products made with lead paint over here to kill us.....
well if GM goes under in the USA maybe then the only way you will be able to buy a Camaro is if it is made in China.. do you want that?

If things had been like I said all along then there would be no need for them to retaliate...
For one you would not implement it all at once, you would phase it in on them, give them time to adapt. If they want to keep doing business over here they would do it.

If there is going to truly be a one world economy, Everyone needs to play with the same set of rules...

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The American public seems to have a fetish with imported goods, and they don't realize it. Why buy a Toyota? I love the answers...ranging from "America makes crap" to "why not?"...these people need to have an incentive to buy American, because it's painfully obvious they won't do it on their own.:( The above measures SHOULD make it cheaper to buy US-made things as it easies the burden on the US-based companies. And the majority of people will by the cheapest product, regardless of where its made; so this should persuade them to buy American...

Who knows if we'll ever see any of what we're talking about happen....

This is where the domestic market really has to go to work in changing that perception. I know people like Scott are sick and tired of hearing some of the things you have stated Dragoneye but GM has to market the crap out of their latest products and be VERY innovative to get that message out. It will take years to change that perception. GM has to not only be innovative, but persistent and persuasive. They need to connect with Americans when marketing their vehicles which I do not believe they do now.

Who loves the Ford commercial when the guy comes back from Iraq and comes home to find his dad washing a '69 Mustang he's owned since new? Dad asks him to help him open the garage door to find a brand new Mustang GT which ends up being a surprise gift given to him by his dad.

I bet we all will remember that one forever because we can relate to it on many levels. The commercial appeals to our patriotism, the history and legend of the Mustang and the love between father and son.

[andyrew]

GM is at 3.41

[Design1stCode2nd]

I understand GM’s position of trying to stay out of bankruptcy and not further pass the burden onto the U.S. Tax payer. It’s a noble one but unfortunately it is flawed. Mistakes have been made in the domestic markets past, quality issues, relability and not having a balanced portfolio of cars. This is being fixed but GM especially is handcuffed in what it can do. Franchise laws prohibit shutting down brands without due compensation which GM doesn’t have. GM has 8 brands when they only need 2-3 at most. Saturn, Pontiac and Chevy all make cars that directly compete with each other Cadillac and Buick? Why have two “Luxury” divisions? GMC? Rebadged trucks and SUV’s.

I’m all for GM, Ford (not Chrysler) getting the funds they need to turn themselves around. The problem is they can’t truly remake themselves into a 21st century company with Chapter 11 protection. GM needs chapter 11 to shed the excess brands, dealers and competing models. It can’t operate like it has 50% of the North American market when it only has 20%.

This is a hard pill for lots of dealers and other employees but it’s necessary. The question is do you want a lean and strong American Manufacturing base or do you want to continue the malaise that has perpetuated for the last 40 years in bringing us to this point?

Bankruptcy would be the ashes that the Phoenix of GM would arise from. Anything else is just band aids on festering wounds that will eventually end to an American Leyland.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

All the while China is sending tainted baby formula and products made with lead paint over here to kill us.....
well if GM goes under in the USA maybe then the only way you will be able to buy a Camaro is if it is made in China.. do you want that?

If things had been like I said all along then there would be no need for them to retaliate...
For one you would not implement it all at once, you would phase it in on them, give them time to adapt. If they want to keep doing business over here they would do it.

If there is going to truly be a one world economy, Everyone needs to play with the same set of rules...

I think Dragoneye has an approach worth looking into. Look at it from the human rights and safety angle.

[greenrail]

I have been very quiet about this entire matter since it all started rolling during the past couple of weeks.

But, I gotta tell you. With everyone running around saying the sky is falling, it has finally gotten to me.

Listen folks, if you think that the collapse of the North American Auto Industry is something which needs to happen. You are dead wrong. There are way too many people who's livelihood depends on this business. The effects would take a horrible toll on the rest of us. (Legacy Costs and Pension Funds)

Like Scott said, they aren't asking for a bailout. They are asking for low interest loans. Much of this is dervived from the Federal Mandates for Fuiel economy, Safety, etc; which our Elected Officials have foisted upon the Manufacturers. Cars like the Volt, don't just fall off the tree. It involves some very costly engineering and development to bring these cars to market.

It really gets under my skin, when we expect the Governement to save us from ourselves. Much of what ails the economy is due to Government Actions and/or inactions depending on which crisis you are talking about.

It is a fine line which we all walk here. I work for one of GM's major transportation suppliers. The effect of losing their traffic will be very great to my company. It will result in loss of jobs and huge loss of productivity.

I am sorry, but we need GM, Ford and (Yes) Chrysler. Their employees and their products are a very major part of the backbone of our economy.

Am I upset. Damn right I am.

Regardless of your political stripe. We (All of Us) need to do what we can to ensure the future of this company (GM) and the fine employees who work for it! (Dare I say it, the same goes for Ford and Chrysler!)

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I like your idea, Skyman...and although I haven't been around quite as long; I've been thinking an awful lot about this...in fact, every time I see a made-in-China tag or a toyota badge, I think about this...

I couldn't give a rat's behind what companies deal with abroad...it's up to the other countries to set standards and rules in their best interests, and I don't want the US to mess with that as we have no right. But I DO think we need to take similar actions here in the US that prop up domestic manufacturers, and make it slightly harder for foriegn companies...we need to "root for the home team" (which includes Canada and Mexico).

--Our gov't can start by removing the incentives for foriegn companies to come over here and set up shop. And increase the incentives for our own companies to do so. This SHOULD, alone, level the playing field enough for our companies to become competitive on their home terf. There's no reason for the situation to be otherwise (as it is right now).

--The next step, could be to require any imported good to have been made in a US-approved assembly/manufacturing plant. 'Approved' meaning that it has a certain level of working conditions and not crazy-ass 16-hour days sweatshop. If a company can't comply...too bad!! No sales in the US. This isn't tampering with how foriegn entities run their businesses, but it does allow the US to be selective in who it deals with. This isn't necessarily in favor of unions because its about working conditions not pay, etc. Generally, working conditions in the US and Canada are better than those in anywhere in Asia...so it gives our continent the advantage, again, on our hime terf.

-- Then, if all else fails, a more extreme measure - and one that I'm not in favor of except as a last-resort - could be to slap a 20% tariff on anything imported (excepting the US, Canada, and Mexico) and be done with it. It doesn't need to be permanent, but it WILL help US-based manufacturers who build and make things in the USA, without harming Canadian and Mexican-based manufacturers.

The thing to remember is that it's not ALL about the companies. The American public seems to have a fetish with imported goods, and they don't realize it. Why buy a Toyota? I love the answers...ranging from "America makes crap" to "why not?"...these people need to have an incentive to buy American, because it's painfully obvious they won't do it on their own.:( The above measures SHOULD make it cheaper to buy US-made things as it easies the burden on the US-based companies. And the majority of people will by the cheapest product, regardless of where its made; so this should persuade them to buy American...

Who knows if we'll ever see any of what we're talking about happen....

Protectionism is a dangerous tightrope in the area of foreign affairs. In times of economic distress, enacting a tariff policy usually leads to hostile reactions from tariffed countries. The US Smoot-Hawtley Tariff, for instance, made the Great Depression worse because it put up walls between Europe and the US. Neither side wanted to trade with the other because they both raised tariffs so much that domestic companies couldn't really profit in the bad market.

I agree that the US should start by encouraging domestic production. This serves multiple goals. In the area of national security, a primary goal of any realist government, this allows the government to use that production in times of national distress or extended war. In the area of taxable resources, this allows the US to tax the workers and the owning company. Incentives to domestic companies should be preferred over incentives to foreign companies, but other companies should still be welcome to invest in our country. Anything that foreign companies get should be already had by American companies. For example, if Toyota gets money for the Prius, I'll be damned if GM doesn't get it for every singly hybrid of its own.

The United States should begin carefully setting standards of products and factories based on US law. If another company fails to live by US or simply reasonable environmental or business practices, then the US does not have to import from that company. This would slowly exclude Chinese imports from US soil, invariably hurting US-Sino relations. It is unlikely that any serious hostilities would result, but I doubt that China would let the US use its airspace.

I would not recommend a 20% tariff on anything imported. That gets passed on to consumers of both imported and domestic products. US companies have little incentive to improve their own products when the competition is no longer in the same price bracket. I'm concerned that this would eliminate all competition in the market.

The US should provide incentives to buy American products. That means that the US should be using the Toyota ads in Japan, claiming that our products are as Japanese as theirs; or that the US should be using Subaru's ads that claim that US products are greener than theirs. We should be pushing our products on the foreign market by proving, side by side, that American products are clearly superior when possible. The US government may see benefits from some sort of temporary overseas advertising fund-matching program or tax rebate. The US government should encourage American business success overseas, especially in failing markets like the automotive industry, because the US government operates with heavy reliance on American cars. Why not show thanks for GM, Ford, and Chrysler by giving some money back? It might sound crazy to a lot of American, but this is a widespread practice overseas. Routinely, countries like Japan invest in their domestic industries to promote new products or to perform research. The US needs to be just as protectionist, especially when the products are clearly superior to the competition.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Hylton

I think Dragoneye has an approach worth looking into. Look at it from the human rights and safety angle.

I just want everyone to have the same rules to work with to sell in the USA. to me that is not protectionist, that is FAIR TRADE.

sorry but this is off topic and I will now stop talking about that.

The main point is we have to also blame ourselves for alot of the companies taking our jobs elsewhere and also driving some American companies bankrupt.

[shadowed_Stranger]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Sorry -- but the way I see it is this: there is virtually nothing out there that foreign manufacturers offer that the American Manufacturers don't offer. (not including ultra-luxury/performance such as Rolls/etc...)

I agree, I think the biggest obstacle myself is the stereotype that american car companies have of being junk. Heck, even when I first got my camaro I would use the quote "If you want a truck by america, if you want a car buy japanese... even though I have a japanese truck (tacoma) and an american car! (camaro!)"

At this point, though, no one can really argue that american cars are junk anymore (even if some are), and no one can argue that japanese are any more reliable. Even toyota, which used to be the undisputed long-term reliability champion, is now being outranked by GM cars (camry vs malibu, etc.).

Like I said before, America has come back into the game, but they still must overcome old stereotypes and prove that they don't sell crap.

Even my father, who would only buy foreign cars is about to switch from a jaguar to a malibu. Every time I mention GM or chevy, he mentions how he had rented two different malibus and one was almost as nice as a cadillac he drove, and one was a piece of crap.

*disclaimer - almost every time I mention america, I mean GM. even american only buyers I know say that D*dge and F*rd sell junk that breaks quickly. That will also be an obstacle, because GM is being lumped in with other vehicles unfairly.

[playhard67]

I think we should seriously look at doing what is necessary for FAIR TRADE. Other countries support their businesses in research as The_Blur noted (Japan paid 100% [not a loan] of the Prius battery technology). Why can't the US government do this? That's not protectionism, that's FAIR TRADE.

Other countries make it hard for US companies to import their goods ionto those countries. If this is the case, then we should do the same with that countries manufacturers products. Why should the US allow a countries manufacturers to sell into the US when we can't do the same in their country? That's not protectionism, that's FAIR TRADE.

It is pretty bad out there. It makes me sick. Last year, my wife and I made it a point to try and buy goods that were only manufactured in the US (and Canada). I was trying to find a small ten cup coffee maker with a timer on it that was made in the US and could not find any (unless I wanted to spend $150+). Just about all were made in China. That's sad. Well, I spent the bucks needed.

My sister-in-law works for IBM in their finance department. She was just given the pink slip and thirty days notice. Why?? Well IBM is sending the jobs of her entire department overseas to China! WTF!

Buy American, The Job You Save May Be Your Own.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Protectionism is a dangerous tightrope in the area of foreign affairs.

I'm tired of walking it. Not all protectionism is bad. It was a period of protectionist policies that got our country up on its feet when we were first 'born'. Perhaps it is time to reinstate some similar policies.

Unfortunately, we are the world's bitch in this country, because everybody can sell anything they want here, but we have to FIGHT to get our products into their countries. Is it a suprise that Japan's automotive fleet is something like 3% foriegn? Because their government makes so many hoops and taxes a company has to go through to sell there, that it's not worth it. Try exporting to Europe; they have similar taxes, and policies we'd have to go through....why doesn't the US adopt these same policies?!?!?! No...instead, lets invite foriegn companies in with open arms and tax breaks!! That's what tears me apart -- it is NOT fair trade, not in the LEAST and yet our people don't get it. Or they just don't care!! We are slowly but surely selling our country away...I'd say some protectionism (if that's what you want to call it: I consider it fair) is just what the doctor ordered.

[Hylton]

Like the old saying goes - "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it". I can understand consumers reluctance a few years ago when the quality of GM products was in question but I do not believe that is an issue any longer.

People have to be educated to realize the value to themselves and the country by buying American. It's a win-win situation really but GM has to get off it's marketing ass and start educating in a way that will get results.

[fbodfather]

Buy the bumper sticker (actually magnetic) that I have:

"Out of a Job Yet? Keep buying foreign!"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ONE-OUT-OF-A-JOB...1%7C240%3A1318

[DGthe3]

Mirror trade laws. If Japan makes it a pain to export cars to them, fine. Make it a pain for them to export cars to us. Thing is, they need America to buy Japans (or Korean or German) cars a lot more than America (or Canada) needs those cars. Our plants could make up for the gap, but there isn't another market that will buy 1,000,000 Toyota's each year. Oh, and take measures to stop the influx of foreign assembly plants too so that the gap is made up by domestic automakers as opposed to Honda Canada or Kia Motors America. Sure they create jobs , but what does it really help with it forces the closure of a plant in Michigan or Ontario?