VW admits to falsifying emissions testing.

[trademaster]

The EPA won't pursue the maximum. In fact, I would be willing to bet the fines are far less significant than many are expecting because of the potential impact on the job market, though it will still probably be in the 10-figure range or near it. What I am very interested to see is what the SEC does. Execs are going to end up in prison over this.

Originally Posted by motorhead

This is a product of governments trying to force things before the technology is there to make it happen.
It forces companies to cheat to survive. I would be willing to bet that things like this won't stop with VW.

No. The technology clearly exists. You do understand that the configuration which loads when the software detects emissions testing results in the vehicles meeting the requirements, right?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by motorhead

This is a product of governments trying to force things before the technology is there to make it happen.
It forces companies to cheat to survive. I would be willing to bet that things like this won't stop with VW.

That is pure BS.

Even if you assume that it was a technical impossibility (wasn't) in 2009, what was forcing them to sell diesels in the first place? If they couldn't meet the emissions requirements, they could have simply gone with a gas-only car lineup & been in compliance.

But the cars could meet emissions requirements, at least occasionally. Thats actually the entire problem. The cars were programmed to run rich while being tested for emissions, to get the NOx trap in the catylytic converter hotter so that it would break down the NOx. It would burn a little more fuel to pass the test, but when the car drove away it would go back to 'normal' & emissions would shoot up. As I understand it, they could have just ran the cars on the 'testing' fuel table 100% of the time and been fine, though with a slight hit to fuel economy. Alternatively, they could have used urea injection like everyone else that sells diesels (or like VW has just recently started doing anyway).

So yes, they had a couple alternatives to cheating on a standard that everybody else seems to be able to comply with.

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

That is pure BS.

Even if you assume that it was a technical impossibility (wasn't) in 2009, what was forcing them to sell diesels in the first place? If they couldn't meet the emissions requirements, they could have simply gone with a gas-only car lineup & been in compliance.

But the cars could meet emissions requirements, at least occasionally. Thats actually the entire problem. The cars were programmed to run rich while being tested for emissions, to get the NOx trap in the catylytic converter hotter so that it would break down the NOx. It would burn a little more fuel to pass the test, but when the car drove away it would go back to 'normal' & emissions would shoot up. As I understand it, they could have just ran the cars on the 'testing' fuel table 100% of the time and been fine, though with a slight hit to fuel economy. Alternatively, they could have used urea injection like everyone else that sells diesels (or like VW has just recently started doing anyway).

So yes, they had a couple alternatives to cheating on a standard that everybody else seems to be able to comply with.

No way they would go to the extremes they did if it was just a slight hit to fuel economy.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

That is pure BS.

Even if you assume that it was a technical impossibility (wasn't) in 2009, what was forcing them to sell diesels in the first place? If they couldn't meet the emissions requirements, they could have simply gone with a gas-only car lineup & been in compliance.

But the cars could meet emissions requirements, at least occasionally. Thats actually the entire problem. The cars were programmed to run rich while being tested for emissions, to get the NOx trap in the catylytic converter hotter so that it would break down the NOx. It would burn a little more fuel to pass the test, but when the car drove away it would go back to 'normal' & emissions would shoot up. As I understand it, they could have just ran the cars on the 'testing' fuel table 100% of the time and been fine, though with a slight hit to fuel economy. Alternatively, they could have used urea injection like everyone else that sells diesels (or like VW has just recently started doing anyway).

So yes, they had a couple alternatives to cheating on a standard that everybody else seems to be able to comply with.

Bingo! GM (and others) took a little longer to develop the technology because they knew the emission standards were coming in addition to FE requirements. Scientists started asking questions last year. They couldn't figure out how VW could possible get the power and FE out of the common-rail TDI with such low emissions. It seemed to defy physics and chemistry. Now we know...they defied the law instead.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by motorhead

That's just it. Who knows, but I could see more of this type of stuff happening with how strict things are getting. We've seen things like this in the past when the rules have changed rather quickly. I've seen it in my business. All I'm saying is, just because someone in Washington decides that this needs to happen by a certain date, it doesn't mean the technology is there to make it happen.

At least 1 BMW model was tested along with the Volkswagens by the same people the EPA contracted to look into this (I think it was a university) & was fine. I don't know what else was tested though.

VW is being scrutinized specifically because people noticed a massive difference between their real world emissions & those in a lab setting. And I think it was first spotted in Europe, but that got the EPA curious. If that is the case, then I'd say most other automakers are going to be alright. Because its only North America that VW has a stranglehold on diesel passenger cars. In Europe, everybody sells them. So for VW to be singled out, instead of Chevy or BMW or Mercedes indicates to me that the problem is more specific to a single automaker than a widespread industry practice. Further supporting that idea is the fact that everybody else uses urea in their diesels (specifically to meet NOx emissions) & many people have been wondering for years how VW managed to get around doing that. Looks like we now know that they got around it by cheating on the test.

[Hilflos]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Winterkorn just resigned.

Inevitable really, though I was thinking he'd make it to the end of the week at least.

Any word on who's replacing him yet? I'd heard that Matthias Müller, Porsche's CEO was the short list.

There's been a lot of speculation about the German government stepping in to help them, at least on that side of the Atlantic.

Jalopnik's got an article with some links back to the researcher (Dan Carder, WVU) who uncovered this and presented his findings a year and change ago. I don't have the time to chase the links right now, but I am very curious as to how they accomplished this. The ability to detect when the car is being emissions tested would be tricky, I would think.

[trademaster]

Originally Posted by rayhawk

No way they would go to the extremes they did if it was just a slight hit to fuel economy.

That depends on what impact on sales that hit in fuel economy was projected to have and how greedy the execs making the decisions were. Money and success make people do silly things.

[MrChrisLS3]

What hasn't gotten past me, of course maybe I've been living under a rock, is the fact that VW has ECM software that can not only detect an emission test is being done, but also change the parameters of engine operation to pass it.

I'm not an industry insider or anything of that sort, so I've never heard of this type of thing. Seems like it would be a gold mine in the aftermarket world. Cars could be set up with custom tunes and could detect if it were being scanned by a dealer, then revert to the stock tune parameters for warranty repair? Cars with heavily modified exhaust could now pass a sniff test?

Right, wrong, or indifferent, this is a fascinating technology to me. Or, like I said, have I been living under a rock?

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

That is pure BS.

Even if you assume that it was a technical impossibility (wasn't) in 2009, what was forcing them to sell diesels in the first place? If they couldn't meet the emissions requirements, they could have simply gone with a gas-only car lineup & been in compliance.

But the cars could meet emissions requirements, at least occasionally. Thats actually the entire problem. The cars were programmed to run rich while being tested for emissions, to get the NOx trap in the catylytic converter hotter so that it would break down the NOx. It would burn a little more fuel to pass the test, but when the car drove away it would go back to 'normal' & emissions would shoot up. As I understand it, they could have just ran the cars on the 'testing' fuel table 100% of the time and been fine, though with a slight hit to fuel economy. Alternatively, they could have used urea injection like everyone else that sells diesels (or like VW has just recently started doing anyway).

So yes, they had a couple alternatives to cheating on a standard that everybody else seems to be able to comply with.

I guess I need to clarify what I'm saying. Also, I am in no way sticking up for their actions. My feelings are that because fuel economy and emissions have gotten so strict and the fact that manufacturers want to still provide vehicles that have an edge, I can see some of them trying to cheat. I'm not agreeing with it. Also, like I said above, it wouldn't surprise me to see more of these types of things as things get even more strict. Pair that with many CEOs and people high up in these large companies having a God complex and thinking they are above everything, you have a recipe for these types of things.

I certainly hope that you are right about all the others "seemingly" complying. I guess I'm just pessimistic about these types of things with all the corruption that is rampant on this earth these days.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by rayhawk

No way they would go to the extremes they did if it was just a slight hit to fuel economy.

I can see it.

I have no idea what the exact numbers are, I'm just going off all that I've read in the last couple days about this whole thing. But lets say retuning the engine causes a 10% hit in fuel economy. I would consider that to be slight myself, but it would have a fairly large impact on their CAFE score as well as erasing a lot of the fuel economy advantage that VW's TDI cars have over a gasoline equivalent.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by trademaster

The EPA won't pursue the maximum. In fact, I would be willing to bet the fines are far less significant than many are expecting because of the potential impact on the job market, though it will still probably be in the 10-figure range or near it. What I am very interested to see is what the SEC does. Execs are going to end up in prison over this.



No. The technology clearly exists. You do understand that the configuration which loads when the software detects emissions testing results in the vehicles meeting the requirements, right?

Yeah, but it affects the vehicle in ways like fuel economy and/or performance to the point that VW was willing to chance a huge fine and possibly having to end business in the US. Which tells me they must not have the technology required to meet all the demands both on a governmental level and a consumer level. Does everyone else? Who knows. Time will tell.

[derklug1]

Originally Posted by Hilflos

The ability to detect when the car is being emissions tested would be tricky, I would think.

One article I read said that they used the lack of steering input and non-drive wheel speed sensors to determine when the car was on a dyno.

[Angrybird 12]

Funny when I read about this I thought of the Kobayashi Maru test.....

[rock1962]

VW traded low emmisions for more HP. I would never do that You kidding me, wouldn't think twice.