MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by shadowed_Stranger

Wow... You just climbed way up on my respect-o-meter. I hope there are alot of people at GM like you. It shows strength of character, which (in my mind anyway) should not be punished by bying elsewhere.

It reminds me of how ford made their world headquarters say happy 100 GM on the 100th bday of gm... Sometimes it takes really bad times like this to remind everyone how much they take for granted. This WILL be hard all around, and I think much like forging steel, we will all be stronger once this wears off.

I wish my best luck to not only everyone at GM, but also to the other big two, and to the rest of the citizens of this great country known as the United States of America.
-Shadowed_Stranger

Thank you!! --

I hope the following won't make me fall back down that respectometer of yours! ........

As my bumper sticker sez:

"Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!"



Sorry -- but the way I see it is this: there is virtually nothing out there that foreign manufacturers offer that the American Manufacturers don't offer. (not including ultra-luxury/performance such as Rolls/etc...)

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by fastball

This is my point exactly. There are plenty of options (most for the better) for people, not just with GMC but with Buick, Pontiac, and Saab, within the realm of Chevy and Cadillac. And if there aren't, GM could easily modify option packages for Chevy trucks to make them more "GMC".... have a "luxury package" to add the chrome HVAC vents for Pete's sake if people are going to be that bitchy.

Scott's response to my suggestions is about what I expected to hear from him. Again, I'm not trying to get into a fight with you Scott, but I think if you sat back and looked at all the overlap between divisions that still exists (despite what Bob Lutz said a few years ago that "badge engineering" the GM way was gone for good), it's hard not to think about seriously strealining all your product.

Let's all take our beloved Camaro for example. I see on many forums people still angry that there isn't going to be a Pontiac Firebird/TA to coincide on the same platform. I, on the other hand, am extremely glad and absolutely elated there isn't. Badge engineering is bad. Overlap between the divisions is bad. And don't tell me about Toyota getting away with it because the way they can take one platform and make 10 different vehicles with it is a key - while the underpinnings may be based on the same platform, there is enough difference in style, design, engineering, handling, tuning, features, and overall shape that to 99% of even car enthusiasts no one really knows.

Let's be honest: A Silverado and a Sierra aren't fooling anyone. Neither is a G6 and an Aura. Or a Cobalt and a G5. See a trend here? A couple of hours with a screwdriver and I could interchange them all to confuse everyone

(reminds me of the 1980's Regal, Cutlass Supreme, and Grand Prix. You could mishmash those cars like crazy)

Seriously, you have to at least acknowledge the overlap was dragging the company down years ago, long before we had such a crisis.

I've been saying in my opinion that Chevy and Cadillac are all GM's needed since the late 1990's.

OK....I'm willing to go along with your suggestions. (and no, you aren't making me mad..... Fastball, I'm glad you're on this site!!!)

BUT--

Tell me how you will:

>Address francise laws to compensate all dealerships that will necessarily have to be terminated. What are your plans to take over leases of dealership facilities? What is your plan to fund "blue sky" that is provided for under most francise laws. How do you plan to arrive at a 'fair' settlement to each Dealer Operator? And -- what are your best estimates (dollar-wise) for escrowing money to show 'good faith' as you go to court in hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits that will occur when you close down a francise?


>Address the volumes of each Division using last year's CYTD total sales volume.....and how you plan to move that volume to other Divisions within the company. What is the budget amount you plan to request in order to carry out adequate marketing activities? (remember -- we STILL have people coming into car shows saying 'wow....I didn't know they WEREN'T building Camaros!' and "where are the new Oldsmobiles?" (yes - it happens .........a LOT!)

>Address how you will fund payments to employees who will be out of a job under this plan.

>Address how you will fund all current contracts for parts/services/proprietary assets with outside suppliers and contractors.

>Address how you will fund all tax abatements offered by current states and municipalities when you close select plants (including sheetmetal stamping/powertrain/etc) facilities.


Good luck -- you are going to be quite busy.

(and again, Fastball - this is nothing against you and I don't want you to think I'm picking on you --) but I DO hope that everyone stops for a minute and thinks about what I'm saying........

See -- we have looked at this from "60 ways to Sunday" -- and if it WERE doable-- we would have done it.

I gotta tell you. ( 'you' meaning everyone on this site..) If you think you have the answer to the nightmares this country is facing - you most likely don't -- because there are thousands upon thousands of people with more experience than you or me -- and with better insight than you or me -- and I guess the bottom line is:

There is NO easy list of solutions............and DEFINITELY not one solution to anything.........

Now -- that said -- conversation is good...........

[Evotion]

I for one will be glad when there comes a time that Scott can visit the Camaro sites, and not have to extinguish the flames set by another "Chicken Little" thread.

We went through all of this same crap 3 weeks ago, and I told myself I was not going to insert myself into more negative speculation threads. I am no Economist, I can take a wild guess and assume that these are going to be up and down times for a while.

The thing we need to be incredibly happy about, is that this is not something that ANYONE, including the government takes lightly. We do not have to sit back and watch these companies implode. There are measures being taken as I type this, to ensure that U.S. automakers WILL be protected. No one is sitting on their hands hoping this all goes away.

We are not talking about "dot coms" that were a dime a dozen, and quite literally vanished overnight. We are talking about companies that have been around longer than any single one of us. And the people who are instrumental in daily operations, and even the ones who know what will happen if even one of these companies fail, are doing everything they can to ensure that it won't.

When I ordered my car almost a month ago, I am ashamed to say I only cared about whether or not my car would be delivered. I still care about that today, but... it's not the most important thing anymore.

We have a unique opportunity with this car. We can order months before the general public has a chance to pick one up at the lot, and we have successfully had our collective voices heard on issues that bothered us.

We have essentially altered the way the Camaro will be offered. Let us focus and celebrate that. The rest will work it self out.

[Stevo]

GM Bankruptcy ...It's more than just getting the car...think about the warranty...gosh what about the guys who bought a challenger ...what will happen to their warranty?

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by Stevo

GM Bankruptcy ...It's more than just getting the car...think about the warranty...gosh what about the guys who bought a challenger ...what will happen to their warranty?

it will be serviced by GM/Chrysler....

[Txturbo]

Well....I'm hoping it all works out. Originally I was going to wait until mid-summer to order my Camaro. But the way things were going, I decided to pre-order hoping it would help keep the ball rolling toward production. I know its only one sale, but its kinda like voting, every one counts. If I could afford to buy two, I would.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

OK....I'm willing to go along with your suggestions. (and no, you aren't making me mad..... Fastball, I'm glad you're on this site!!!)

BUT--

Tell me how you will:

>Address francise laws to compensate all dealerships that will necessarily have to be terminated. What are your plans to take over leases of dealership facilities? What is your plan to fund "blue sky" that is provided for under most francise laws. How do you plan to arrive at a 'fair' settlement to each Dealer Operator? And -- what are your best estimates (dollar-wise) for escrowing money to show 'good faith' as you go to court in hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits that will occur when you close down a francise?


>Address the volumes of each Division using last year's CYTD total sales volume.....and how you plan to move that volume to other Divisions within the company. What is the budget amount you plan to request in order to carry out adequate marketing activities? (remember -- we STILL have people coming into car shows saying 'wow....I didn't know they WEREN'T building Camaros!' and "where are the new Oldsmobiles?" (yes - it happens .........a LOT!)

>Address how you will fund payments to employees who will be out of a job under this plan.

>Address how you will fund all current contracts for parts/services/proprietary assets with outside suppliers and contractors.

>Address how you will fund all tax abatements offered by current states and municipalities when you close select plants (including sheetmetal stamping/powertrain/etc) facilities.


Good luck -- you are going to be quite busy.

(and again, Fastball - this is nothing against you and I don't want you to think I'm picking on you --) but I DO hope that everyone stops for a minute and thinks about what I'm saying........

See -- we have looked at this from "60 ways to Sunday" -- and if it WERE doable-- we would have done it.

I gotta tell you. ( 'you' meaning everyone on this site..) If you think you have the answer to the nightmares this country is facing - you most likely don't -- because there are thousands upon thousands of people with more experience than you or me -- and with better insight than you or me -- and I guess the bottom line is:

There is NO easy list of solutions............and DEFINITELY not one solution to anything.........

Now -- that said -- conversation is good...........

How does Ford get to sell it's trucks at Lincoln-Mercury AND Ford dealers but apparently GM cannot do something similar? If Ford can do it, so can GM.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by Hylton

How does Ford get to sell it's trucks at Lincoln-Mercury AND Ford dealers but apparently GM cannot do something similar? If Ford can do it, so can GM.

Because you live in Canada -- where this evidently is allowed. Your government was wise in not allowing 50 different sets of francise laws that may, at one time, have been necessary -...........

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Hylton

How does Ford get to sell it's trucks at Lincoln-Mercury AND Ford dealers but apparently GM cannot do something similar? If Ford can do it, so can GM.

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Because you live in Canada -- where this evidently is allowed. Your government was wise in not allowing 50 different sets of francise laws that may, at one time, have been necessary -...........

Well perhaps this is one area which I think the industry must lobby in order to help the turn-around. Ironic really - we have free trade between Canada and the US but we do not have free trade between some states.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Lastly - I will quote someone from another site:

"...It's time for everyone to think of "US" rather than "ME"....."

Now THAT'S a wise man -- because THAT'S what got us thru two World wars........

Time to wake up America!

Our standard of living isn't free -- you'd better start thinking of what's in OUR (meaning U.S.) best interests............


Don't like GM? Then at least consider a Ford or A Chrysler -- you're helping everyone out.

Scott, this is exactly what I have been telling people since the mid 70's when I got laid off from my first real job.
Too many people shop using their own back pocket as their guide instead of thinking about what they may be doing to themselves in the future. I suggest that BEFORE we lose our jobs we need to look around our homes and in our driveways.. what you see is many years of not caring where something was made but how much you had to pay for it. Not only are the Government and American companies at fault for the problems we have, but us the consumers.
Everything you buy has an impact on someone else. and eventually it will trickle down to you....

Just think about why so many companies have been forced to move their manufacturing overseas? The biggest reason, in my opinion is it started with the Consumer's demands for less expensive products, while their unions and themselves demand higher wages. You cannot buy cheaper foreign goods, and demand that the American businesses pay you more money. To compete American companies had to cut costs, and they way they did that was in the quality of their products. That made sales fall even farther because the foreign companies had more revenue to improve their quality. Then to further compete, American companies started moving to countries where the labor force was cheaper and fewer government regulations.

That is what started it all, and now we have ourselves in a Hole where it will be virtually impossible for manufacturers to bring production back here...

I have had a couple Ideas.
1. Make all manufacturers, foreign or domestic, meet the same environmental laws as any company operating in the USA.
2. Require like pay for like work by any company doing business in the USA.
3. Require Foreign governments to reduce tarriffs on American products so they can be competitively priced with their domestic products.

Removing incentives to manufacture overseas is a need we have, along with making foreign companies play by the same rules our companies have to play by.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

I have had a couple Ideas.
1. Make all manufacturers, foreign or domestic, meet the same environmental laws as any company operating in the USA.
2. Require like pay for like work by any company doing business in the USA.
3. Require Foreign governments to reduce tarriffs on American products so they can be competitively priced with their domestic products.

This is not directed at you per say but as if China gives a crap about our job loses.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Hylton

This is not directed at you per say but as if China gives a crap about our job loses.

well with my plan they wouldn't be selling anything here then.. get it?

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

well with my plan they wouldn't be selling anything here then.. get it?

I do but do you want to kill GM's current success in China - the fastest growing economy in the world? Don't think China wouldn't retaliate.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I like your idea, Skyman...and although I haven't been around quite as long; I've been thinking an awful lot about this...in fact, every time I see a made-in-China tag or a toyota badge, I think about this...

I couldn't give a rat's behind what companies deal with abroad...it's up to the other countries to set standards and rules in their best interests, and I don't want the US to mess with that as we have no right. But I DO think we need to take similar actions here in the US that prop up domestic manufacturers, and make it slightly harder for foriegn companies...we need to "root for the home team" (which includes Canada and Mexico).

--Our gov't can start by removing the incentives for foriegn companies to come over here and set up shop. And increase the incentives for our own companies to do so. This SHOULD, alone, level the playing field enough for our companies to become competitive on their home terf. There's no reason for the situation to be otherwise (as it is right now).

--The next step, could be to require any imported good to have been made in a US-approved assembly/manufacturing plant. 'Approved' meaning that it has a certain level of working conditions and not crazy-ass 16-hour days sweatshop. If a company can't comply...too bad!! No sales in the US. This isn't tampering with how foriegn entities run their businesses, but it does allow the US to be selective in who it deals with. This isn't necessarily in favor of unions because its about working conditions not pay, etc. Generally, working conditions in the US and Canada are better than those in anywhere in Asia...so it gives our continent the advantage, again, on our hime terf.

-- Then, if all else fails, a more extreme measure - and one that I'm not in favor of except as a last-resort - could be to slap a 20% tariff on anything imported (excepting the US, Canada, and Mexico) and be done with it. It doesn't need to be permanent, but it WILL help US-based manufacturers who build and make things in the USA, without harming Canadian and Mexican-based manufacturers.

The thing to remember is that it's not ALL about the companies. The American public seems to have a fetish with imported goods, and they don't realize it. Why buy a Toyota? I love the answers...ranging from "America makes crap" to "why not?"...these people need to have an incentive to buy American, because it's painfully obvious they won't do it on their own.:( The above measures SHOULD make it cheaper to buy US-made things as it easies the burden on the US-based companies. And the majority of people will by the cheapest product, regardless of where its made; so this should persuade them to buy American...

Who knows if we'll ever see any of what we're talking about happen....