Should Camaro get its own platform again?

[motorhead]

There is no reason for it to have its own platform. That's why they build the Vette.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by McRat

1997 debut of LS1 SBC. 305 to 350HP ratings.
2001 freshen to LS6 to 385HP
2002 freshen to LS6 to 405HP
2004...LS2 6.0L @ 400 hp (and numerous variants)
2005 freshen to LS3 at 430HP; "430+" hp as a dry-sump Corvette GS-stick engine...
2006 freshen to LS7 at 505HP
2009 freshen to LSA at 556HP
2010 freshen to LS9 at 638HP
2012 freshen LSA to 580HP
2014 unofficial bump in LS7 power, bump in torque.

The "LS" family has spawned 4.8-5.3-5.7-6.0-6.2-7.0L versions for land-based vehicles, and an entire separately-engineered family, under MerCruiser development, for water-based craft as well.

Check out Gen III, and Gen IV SBC, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...l-block_engine

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not saying GM doesn't build multiple engines. I am saying that when they build an engine, they leave it until it is retired. Outside of a few examples, that is the case. The LS3, 7, 9 and A all remain at the same output they did in their respective forms from the day they were released. Yes, the LSA got a bump moving from the CTS to Camaro...

...and so did the LS7, when re-engineered for the heavier Camaro, when it was brought over from the Vette.

The LS3 in the Camaro is rated lower than the LS3 in the Corvette. The LS1 Camaros were rated way lower than the LS1 Corvettes even though they had essentially the same engine. Exhaust systems would be the primary answer. There were other technical differences as well, often.

The LSA is nowhere near the LS9 in power output. Technical differences...compare specs. With hypereutectic pistons, a 1.9 blower, CAFE, and a 5/60 warranty, near-600hp ain't too shabby. What do the "tuners" offer for warranty with this much power in an aftermarket-blown LS3?!

BTW, what was the difference in power between an '11 GT500 and a '13? Aren't you glad you didn't buy an earlier one?!

When the GT500 came out with 662 hp, GM didn't do anything to the ZL1 to make it a little faster. They were spending their development dollars on the "LT" program, and putting an LS9 in a Camaro would not have met performance or pricing objectives (LS9 is not Automatic-compatible, the true secret to the Hellcat's hellacious times...).Did Ford catch GM with their knickers @ their knees? Yes. But, by that time, the die was cast...other programs had priority. And the atmosphere for $85K+ LS9 Camaros would have been mighty rare air...

Ask an average ZL1 owner if they feel gypped, or ripped off...the vast majority of owners bought their cars with their eyes W-I-D-E open...and they were bought in similar numbers to the GT500.

As for Ford only having 444 hp N/A as of now, I bet the GT350 matches or beats the LS7. GM has completely given up on N/A engines for higher performance trims.

Stay tuned...

Originally Posted by shaffe

They better make a great sedan if/when they Make a lincoln on the S550. I want Lincoln to survive and they desperately need something cool like that

Since there are no independent test results for the '15 Mustang published yet, stick around.

If you're impressed with the ATS's capabilities, and how they'll morph as a Camaro, I would expect the same recipe will be engineered into the Lincoln version of the S550 as well. Lincoln could do a LOT worse than target the ATS, including the upcoming ATS-V. And if/when they get around to doing something CTS-sized, you can believe the CTS will also be in their crosshairs...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not saying GM doesn't build multiple engines. I am saying that when they build an engine, they leave it until it is retired. Outside of a few examples, that is the case. The LS3, 7, 9 and A all remain at the same output they did in their respective forms from the day they were released. Yes, the LSA got a bump moving from the CTS to Camaro but that was due to a more room in the Camaro, at least what I read.

How many variations of the 4.6 did they build? How many variations of the 5.0 have they built? How many engine changes did they make for the GT500?

When the Camaro was being killed off, did GM drop in the LS6 as a final farewell? No. You can't tell me the LS6 was that much more expensive than the LS1.

The LS3 in the Camaro is rated lower than the LS3 in the Corvette. The LS1 Camaros were rated way lower than the LS1 Corvettes even though they had essentially the same engine.

The LSA is nowhere near the LS9 in power output. When the GT500 came out with 662 hp, GM didn't do anything to the ZL1 to make it a little faster.

The only reason the Z/28 got the LS7 is because they had not other option.

As for Ford only having 444 hp N/A as of now, I bet the GT350 matches or beats the LS7. GM has completely given up on N/A engines for higher performance trims.

The way I look at it, Ford had to up the power on everything just to remain competitive. GM built the better car & therefore didn't need to play that game.

Why didn't GM drop the LS9 into the ZL1? The better question is: why would they? The GT500 is out of production anyways. But despite that, an LS9 Camaro would still be down 30 hp and be several hundred pounds heavier.

And I'm not sure why you are so down on the LS7. Its an absolutely awesome engine. Easily on anyones shortlist of greatest V8s ever built by a domestic automaker. I wouldn't want any other engine in the Z/28.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Check out Gen III, and Gen IV SBC, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...l-block_engine



Stay tuned...



Since there are no independent test results for the '15 Mustang published yet, stick around.

If you're impressed with the ATS's capabilities, and how they'll morph as a Camaro, I would expect the same recipe will be engineered into the Lincoln version of the S550 as well. Lincoln could do a LOT worse than target the ATS, including the upcoming ATS-V. And if/when they get around to doing something CTS-sized, you can believe the CTS will also be in their crosshairs...

That is what I would love. I loved how Cadillac turned them selves around, I want Lincoln to do the same. I know people say Lincoln should target Buick, no I want Lincoln to shoot for the best.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Stay tuned...

If there was no LS9 or 5.8 Trinity, I would agree, the LSA is a good engine but the fact those two existed, and now the Hellcat is in production, makes it not as good.

Cars get better every year. Costumers being upset is not a reason to not improve your vehicles every year.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The way I look at it, Ford had to up the power on everything just to remain competitive. GM built the better car & therefore didn't need to play that game.

Why didn't GM drop the LS9 into the ZL1? The better question is: why would they? The GT500 is out of production anyways. But despite that, an LS9 Camaro would still be down 30 hp and be several hundred pounds heavier.

And I'm not sure why you are so down on the LS7. Its an absolutely awesome engine. Easily on anyones shortlist of greatest V8s ever built by a domestic automaker. I wouldn't want any other engine in the Z/28.

The better question is why shouldn't they have dropped the LS9 in the ZL1? Why should we as Camaro owners get lesser engines.

I'm not down on the LS7 at all. It is one of my favorite engines of all time and I was beyond excited to see it in the Z/28. My point is, to build the Z/28, GM literally had no other option to power the car, which is why the LS7 isn't in there. If they had an engine like the LSA is to the LS9, it would have been in there instead.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If there was no LS9 or 5.8 Trinity, I would agree, the LSA is a good engine but the fact those two existed, and now the Hellcat is in production, makes it not as good.

Cars get better every year. Costumers being upset is not a reason to not improve your vehicles every year.



The better question is why shouldn't they have dropped the LS9 in the ZL1? Why should we as Camaro owners get lesser engines.

I'm not down on the LS7 at all. It is one of my favorite engines of all time and I was beyond excited to see it in the Z/28. My point is, to build the Z/28, GM literally had no other option to power the car, which is why the LS7 isn't in there. If they had an engine like the LSA is to the LS9, it would have been in there instead.

I think you are missing some perspective though. While all this was going on GM was phasing out the Gen IV motors. Ford had just introduced the Coyote. Many factors went into GM's decision to put the LS7 in the Z/28. Sure, they could have put a LS9 in it, but they probably had excess capacity for the LS7 (they were going in the Z06 and Corvette 427) while they had already wound down production of the LS9 for the ZR1s in preparation for the C7s. Throw in the whole bankruptcy thing and I don't think the past 7-8 years are a very good indication of what the next decade holds for GM.

[McRat]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

...
The better question is why shouldn't they have dropped the LS9 in the ZL1? Why should we as Camaro owners get lesser engines.

...

With no other required modifications to the driveline or cooling, $11,000 difference between mass-produced LSA, and hand built LS9.

$57k base price become $68k base price. But most like add a could thou for the powertrain changes. $70k.

Perhaps GM market research indicated the price is too high.

It would have been cheaper perhaps to upgrade the LSA, both for the Caddy and ZL1 for 2014. No dry sump, forged steel rods, steel valves, unported heads, LS9 blower, mass-produced. So split the difference to a $5k bounce in price and put 625 HP in it.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

I think you are missing some perspective though. While all this was going on GM was phasing out the Gen IV motors. Ford had just introduced the Coyote. Many factors went into GM's decision to put the LS7 in the Z/28. Sure, they could have put a LS9 in it, but they probably had excess capacity for the LS7 (they were going in the Z06 and Corvette 427) while they had already wound down production of the LS9 for the ZR1s in preparation for the C7s. Throw in the whole bankruptcy thing and I don't think the past 7-8 years are a very good indication of what the next decade holds for GM.

I don't think thats where he was going with his analogy. I think he was trying to say something along these lines.

Corvette gets LS9, Camaro gets LSA which is not as "good" as the LS9

I think he was trying to say, that if there was a "lesser" version of the LS7, that the Z/28 would have gotten that, but because there was not, they HAD to use the LS7

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

I think you are missing some perspective though. While all this was going on GM was phasing out the Gen IV motors. Ford had just introduced the Coyote. Many factors went into GM's decision to put the LS7 in the Z/28. Sure, they could have put a LS9 in it, but they probably had excess capacity for the LS7 (they were going in the Z06 and Corvette 427) while they had already wound down production of the LS9 for the ZR1s in preparation for the C7s. Throw in the whole bankruptcy thing and I don't think the past 7-8 years are a very good indication of what the next decade holds for GM.

I guess we have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by McRat

With no other required modifications to the driveline or cooling, $11,000 difference between mass-produced LSA, and hand built LS9.

$57k base price become $68k base price. But most like add a could thou for the powertrain changes. $70k.

Perhaps GM market research indicated the price is too high.

It would have been cheaper perhaps to upgrade the LSA, both for the Caddy and ZL1 for 2014. No dry sump, forged steel rods, steel valves, unported heads, LS9 blower, mass-produced. So split the difference to a $5k bounce in price and put 625 HP in it.

If that was the case, why isn't the Trinity powered GT500 $70k+. The one place I could find a crate Trinity, listed it at $33k.

Look at the changes made to the Coyote to produce the Roadrunner 302. Why can Ford do all this without the BOSS costing tens of thousands over the GT? The Roadrunner is a fully forged engine with CNC porting and low production yet Ford put it in a car that started low $40s. When I ask why GM doesn't do this, all the replies say its impossible yet Ford has done it multiple times.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't think thats where he was going with his analogy. I think he was trying to say something along these lines.

Corvette gets LS9, Camaro gets LSA which is not as "good" as the LS9

I think he was trying to say, that if there was a "lesser" version of the LS7, that the Z/28 would have gotten that, but because there was not, they HAD to use the LS7

That's exactly what I was saying.

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't think thats where he was going with his analogy. I think he was trying to say something along these lines.

Corvette gets LS9, Camaro gets LSA which is not as "good" as the LS9

I think he was trying to say, that if there was a "lesser" version of the LS7, that the Z/28 would have gotten that, but because there was not, they HAD to use the LS7

But there is a lesser version of the LS7...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr Twisty

But there is a lesser version of the LS7...

If you mean the LS7 built for the Z06, that isn't what I am talking about.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If there was no LS9 or 5.8 Trinity, I would agree, the LSA is a good engine but the fact those two existed, and now the Hellcat is in production, makes it not as good.

Again, there are several 1,000 ZL1 owners who would disagree...and, contrary to the "$68,000" guess for an LS9-engined ZL1, the "correct" answer would have been "Z/28+ money", or at the very least $80K. And just how many people would have lined up at the local Chevy Shack to buy one at that price?

No one has said the GT500 improved Ford's bottom line, with a $33K engine and a high $50s base MSRP. That means the rest of the car was only worth $25K, retail? Guess Ford fans just got lucky...

Cars get better every year. [Customers] being upset is not a reason to not improve your vehicles every year.

Again, model for model, Mustang vs. Camaro, only the locomotive-powered GT500 trumps its direct competition...in a straight line...and it apparently was sold @ little/no profit. What a triumph!

The Hellcat is FCA's attempt to light a fire in Dodge showrooms against looming intros of superior-renewed Mustangs and Camaros. When does the Challenger get its Lancia makeover? 2018...or later? WOW! 3,000 units that may draw a few 1,000 more buyers to their doors. I'm sure Ford and GM are REALLY concerned...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Again, model for model, Mustang vs. Camaro, only the locomotive-powered GT500 trumps its direct competition...in a straight line...and it apparently was sold @ little/no profit. What a triumph!

The Hellcat is FCA's attempt to light a fire in Dodge showrooms against looming intros of superior-renewed Mustangs and Camaros. When does the Challenger get its Lancia makeover? 2018...or later? WOW! 3,000 units that may draw a few 1,000 more buyers to their doors. I'm sure Ford and GM are REALLY concerned...

Do you honestly believe the GT500 was sold at a loss? How about the BOSS 302? It had a low production, specialty engine.

[McRat]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I guess we have to wait and see.



If that was the case, why isn't the Trinity powered GT500 $70k+. The one place I could find a crate Trinity, listed it at $33k.

Look at the changes made to the Coyote to produce the Roadrunner 302. Why can Ford do all this without the BOSS costing tens of thousands over the GT? The Roadrunner is a fully forged engine with CNC porting and low production yet Ford put it in a car that started low $40s. When I ask why GM doesn't do this, all the replies say its impossible yet Ford has done it multiple times.



That's exactly what I was saying.

Price just a set of titanium rods and valves for any V8. Then any dry sump system.

There is a reason the cheaper cars did not get these. Very little gain per dollar, but a gain none-the-less.