How to convince my dad syntetic oil is better then conventional

[Mr Twisty]

Here's an interesting article about a 400,000+ mile oil change... I would take it with a grain of salt tho, I imagine his external oil filter is a little more than just a filter. Also, it's probably a light duty service vehicle.

http://www.performanceoiltechnology...._grey_409k.htm

[bill2129]

My car has 145k. would it be bad to switch to mobil 1? I hear it can cause leaks on a high mile car. mines had reg castrol all its life

[G-Oil Guy]

Bill,

I don't believe if you put Mobil 1 in your car you will have any problems. The Mobil 1 will actually help clean out the deposits left by the old oil. You won't quite get the results as posted by SC2150's pics. But you will get improved results.

Additionally, any leakage that may occur will be an indication of a problem somewhere within the engine block.

Go with the synthetics. Any of them. Doesn't have to be Mobil 1 but that is my brand of choice.

[midnighter]

I at least would run synthetic blend. When I drain the engine for an oil change after around 4k miles, synthetic oil's color is much more like new than with whale blubber oil.

[Ivas]

Originally Posted by G-Oil Guy

There is no fully synthetic "synthetic" motor oil anymore. Most "synthetics" are a hybrid. If you'd like me to explain, just say so but for now:

That's not to say that Mobil 1 isn't currently one of the industry's best motor oils.

The reason your father may be hesitant to go back to "synthetics" is because back in the day, fully synthetics would dissolve the particles and gunk formed by the degradation of traditional motor oil. This lead to the to claims that synthetic oils would cause your engine to leak when it was quite the opposite. The synthetic oils would actually clean your engine. The resulting leaks occurred because the engines didn't have the traditional oil gunk sealing the engine, so to speak.

Engines have improved greatly over the resulting decades, as have motor oils. All standard motor oils will get well beyond 3000 miles. Hell most synthetics test at over 30,000 miles between changes. However, motor oil companies are legally barred from advertising anything over 15,000 miles. The reason is safety. The government wants you to have you car checked by a professional. Ever wonder why when you change your oil yourself you can be done inside 15-20 minutes but take it to a shop or even a quick lube place it takes almost a half hour, its because the technicians are checking other parts of your car. The so-call "courtesy [insert number here] point check."

But back on topic, synthetics are the way to go. They truly do keep your engine in better condition and provide better protection from wear and tear.

Engine tests have been done on junkyard engines that have been run on traditional motor oil and then drained and run on one cycle of synthetic oil and then torn apart at the conclusion of the test. The engines components were all then sent back to the manufacturer to check their integrity. All but one piece was rated as "brand new". I do not remember the piece that was rated as "used" but it was an insignificant piece. It was not a major component.

While you are at it, Old Sage, would you please enlighten us as to what was meant, back in the early 1970's, by detergent oil. I had some really old cars from the 40's and early 50's back then, and we young bucks were always counseled by our elder mechanics NOT to put detergent oil in our old engines.

What was the real story? Enquiring minds wanna' know.

[SC2150]

Detergent in the early oils would lossen up the sludge and cause issue such as clogged hydraulic lifters, etc. That was because the early oil were all non detergent and many a time I pulled a ford or chrysler (they did not cool the heads as well as the chevy's, but the chevys as well) valve cover off and the sludge was formed like jellow out of a mold to the valve covers with just room where the rockers traveled. Oil has come a LLLOOOOONNNGGGG way.

G-Oil Guy seems to know his stuff for sure. Need more informed techs on here to share their knowledge. Lot's of mis-information on here and most forums on so many subjects.

We do oil analysis on some vehicles and on our race tow rigs in the past and that tells you a detailed story as to whats happening. I would ONLY run full syn in a car you expect to keep for some time. I tear some of these LS motors apart with 150-200k plus miles and they still appear like new inside if full syn has been used.

[G-Oil Guy]

Originally Posted by Ivas

While you are at it, Old Sage, would you please enlighten us as to what was meant, back in the early 1970's, by detergent oil. I had some really old cars from the 40's and early 50's back then, and we young bucks were always counseled by our elder mechanics NOT to put detergent oil in our old engines.

What was the real story? Enquiring minds wanna' know.

lol...Old Sage...Didn't know one could be considered a Sage at 27. I just work in the industry and have access to data and information that the common consumer does not.

But the reason there is no fully synthetic oils anymore is because years ago (Before Exxon and Mobil merged) Mobil brought a lawsuit against Castrol for their branding of their oil technology "syntec" as synthetic. Exxon, at the time, backed Castrol because they were formulating their own oil similar to Castrol. Both of these oils were getting killed on the market by Mobil 1 since it was a true synthetic PAO (Poly Aromatic Olefin) blend. Long story short that since Castrols oil (which used Base III/IV basestocks) received further refining beyond normal basestock oils, and because their testing showed it performed almost to the same levels as Mobil 1, the courts ruled that "if they're essentially the same, whats the big deal?" and allowed Castrol to market its oil as synthetic.

The bean counters and engineers behind the formulations realized if there was no need to go through the process of formulating a fully snythetic PAO blend, they could just take the PAO amounts that get produced in a normal refining process and blend it with other base stocks and then sell it as a synthetic as the precedent was now set. Profit margin on the oil is now even bigger with no added cost.

Fast forward several years, Exxon and Mobil merge, form ExxonMobil and continue the path.

As an aside, if you want prove, check out the European markets, especially Germany. There, in order to be marketed and sold as a synthetic the oil must be completely based in non-blended PAO basestock. And since there's no money in it, its not really done. Castrol and Mobil 1 are not sold as Synthetics there.

As for detergent oils, virtually all, ALL, modern oils are "Detergent oils". Non-detergent oils were oils with no additives. Detergent oils help by suspending soot and particles left from oil degradation in the oil. This is why, as evidenced by the above pictures, synthetic engine oils look basically brand new on tear down.

Now the synthetic oils PAO content help improve those processes even more. It also comes down to additive blends. Mobil 1 has some of the best blends in the industry. Its one thing their formula generators know its their oil testing. In addition they have some of the best engine testing laboratories in the industry and take their market position and reputation very seriously.

The reason you're old school mechanics suggested you not use "detergent oils" in very old engines is, as I already stated, old school engines weren't (in my opinion) produced to such tight tolerances as modern engines and were not produced with the same precision. In these cases, the gunk and soot formed from the degradation of traditional base stock oils actually helped to seal the engines. Basically acting like a coloidal (read suspension type gel) gasket for the engine. Once you introduced a "detergent" oil to these types of engines (even well into the 70s), the soot and gunk would dissolve back into the oil, thus "unsealing" the engine and causing leaks. This wasn't a flaw of the oil, it was a flaw in the engine design/construction.

However, I will state that I do not know what types of oils people use in those very few and rare original equipment antiques and classics out there. However, I will say if there are still specialty tire makers (for all those white wall lovers out there), I'm sure there is someone that makes an engine oil tailored to those types of cars.

[Ivas]

Yeah man, my fifty-six Ford had gunked up crap under its valve covers before I got hip to the problem. That car's 312 engine was the first of Ford's to have overhead valves, I believe. And the rocker arm oilers were metal tubing that snaked under the covers to connect directly into the rocker arm shafts. Man, THAT was hella primitive!

[G-Oil Guy]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Detergent in the early oils would lossen up the sludge and cause issue such as clogged hydraulic lifters, etc. That was because the early oil were all non detergent and many a time I pulled a ford or chrysler (they did not cool the heads as well as the chevy's, but the chevys as well) valve cover off and the sludge was formed like jellow out of a mold to the valve covers with just room where the rockers traveled. Oil has come a LLLOOOOONNNGGGG way.

G-Oil Guy seems to know his stuff for sure. Need more informed techs on here to share their knowledge. Lot's of mis-information on here and most forums on so many subjects.

We do oil analysis on some vehicles and on our race tow rigs in the past and that tells you a detailed story as to whats happening. I would ONLY run full syn in a car you expect to keep for some time. I tear some of these LS motors apart with 150-200k plus miles and they still appear like new inside if full syn has been used.

Thanks SC. I'm just an everyday car guy. I just have the benefit of being a chemical engineer in the oil industry.

My goals are to help people better understand, because I understand our industry isn't well liked by the majority of the public and would be better served by hearing non-bs information straight from people as close to the public as possible. And one thing I can guarantee you is that I am in no way above the level of "peon" in the oil industry...

[ffrcobra_65]

try telling him he doesn't need to buy newspaper anymore....

[bill2129]

Well im going to try the mobil 1 next time. Hope I get no leaks.....

[G-Oil Guy]

Originally Posted by bill2129

Well im going to try the mobil 1 next time. Hope I get no leaks.....

I'll make you a deal. If you develop a leak and provide proof in this thread, I will pay for your next oil change to go back to what you were using before the swap to Mobil 1.

[bill2129]

Okay. That gives me more confidence. Can't wait to put it in. Mines not due for another month