Greatest of all time (GOAT NFL)

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Joe M 2012 2SS

What your not understanding here is the reason the PATS balls were lower.

The PATS balls were not kept covered during the first half, the Colts were.
The balls were brought outside to a temperature of 48 degrees from a temperature inside of 71 degrees.

The laws of physics have proven PSI loss to an inflated ball when exposed to cooler temps. The PATS balls were also wet. The dampness further reduces the PSI, as the leather is softer when wet, and will expand more then a dry ball.

When the balls were brought in for testing at halftime, the PATS balls were measured first, all 12. they were inflated back to 12.5.

The Colts only had 4 of their 12 measured, because the officials took much of the 13 minutes they had with the PATS balls.

The laws of physics also prove that PSI will rise in them after 10 minutes of being in a 23 degree warmer temperature.

The PATS balls would have increased as well had they been given the same amount of time, and were dry.

Science proves the PATS balls were 0.004% lower then they should have been based upon beginning PSI, temperature change, and the water on the balls.

Four one hundredths of 1 percent is evidence of tampering?

The NFL should apologize to Brady for charging him guilty.





What the actual game proved is NE's defensive coordinator did his job fantastically.

He found every weakness in the Colts offense, and the PATS exploited it the entire game.

The PATS offensive coordinator did likewise.

Belichick had the team ready physically and mentally.

A similar game this past season was played in the NFC championship game ATL vs GB. GB's defense had 3 key injuries that left a poor soul who runs a 4.7 and giving up 30 lbs., guarding Julio Jones. Ridiculously biased matchup. ATL exploited it the entire game.

The offensive line of GB was also exploited with a weak side rush at Aaron Rodgers, they again didn't have the speed to stop the ATL rush from this side.

The reason the PATS always have a playoff team is the way salaries are structured. Brady makes less then 1/2 of what other highly productive quarterbacks in the league do.

They distribute the money more equally across the board then any other team in the NFL. This allows them to get better players at more positions.

A team full of better then average players will more often then not be able to take advantage of another team who has an average player at his position.

This team also can double team without weakening, if facing an opponent whose has a mis-match in their favor in a position.

This is why the PATS won't let other teams beat them with their best player.

While much focus in the media is put on Brady, Brady himself isn't the only reason the PATS are successful. The PATS are strong at all positions.

The report showed the Pats balls had 2-4 minutes to re-inflate while being taken back inside and that it took 5-7 minutes to remeasure. So by your logic of 10 minutes and the air will be back to normal pressure, the last few balls should have been close to 12.5. Ball number 9, 10 and 11 were 10.95/11.35, 10.5/10.90, 10.90/11.35 respectfully. The two measurements were from the 2 different gauges. So they were off by a full pound or more.

So are you saying that had they waiting....11 minutes, that all their balls would have been back up to 12.5 or very close to it?

Comparing wet vs. dry doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you have a link that shows the pats balls were wet, and the colts balls were not? I'm pretty sure all the balls were used by halftime, and that they all were under the same conditions. Even if by some miracle the colts were able to keep the 3 or 4 balls that were tested dry, it wouldn't have made a 1lb difference.

[Joe M 2012 2SS]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

The report showed the Pats balls had 2-4 minutes to re-inflate while being taken back inside and that it took 5-7 minutes to remeasure. So by your logic of 10 minutes and the air will be back to normal pressure, the last few balls should have been close to 12.5. Ball number 9, 10 and 11 were 10.95/11.35, 10.5/10.90, 10.90/11.35 respectfully. The two measurements were from the 2 different gauges. So they were off by a full pound or more.

So are you saying that had they waiting....11 minutes, that all their balls would have been back up to 12.5 or very close to it?

Comparing wet vs. dry doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you have a link that shows the pats balls were wet, and the colts balls were not? I'm pretty sure all the balls were used by halftime, and that they all were under the same conditions. Even if by some miracle the colts were able to keep the 3 or 4 balls that were tested dry, it wouldn't have made a 1lb difference.

.

Yes the balls would have increased back up in 11 minutes of wait time to warm, due to them being wet though, it would have been slower. The Colts ball were inflated pre game to 13 PSI, but were not measured until they warmed.

The PATS had a long drive before halftime where their balls were exposed to the cold and rain, the Colts balls were inside a bag, not exposed to the same elements.

[Dmpsix]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

The report showed the Pats balls had 2-4 minutes to re-inflate while being taken back inside and that it took 5-7 minutes to remeasure. So by your logic of 10 minutes and the air will be back to normal pressure, the last few balls should have been close to 12.5. Ball number 9, 10 and 11 were 10.95/11.35, 10.5/10.90, 10.90/11.35 respectfully. The two measurements were from the 2 different gauges. So they were off by a full pound or more.

So are you saying that had they waiting....11 minutes, that all their balls would have been back up to 12.5 or very close to it?

Comparing wet vs. dry doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you have a link that shows the pats balls were wet, and the colts balls were not? I'm pretty sure all the balls were used by halftime, and that they all were under the same conditions. Even if by some miracle the colts were able to keep the 3 or 4 balls that were tested dry, it wouldn't have made a 1lb difference.

Incorrect, where are you getting your facts from? I actually did a research project on this in a Physic's course I did 2 semesters ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflategate

Besides temperature-based deflation and the timing of the measurements, the condition of a ball's surface (wet vs. dry) also has a small but detectable effect on the measured pressure; there can also be minor measurement error caused by the gauges. During halftime, the referees used two gauges on each ball: the same Non-Logo Gauge that Wells believes to have been used by Anderson before the game to confirm the pre-game pressure, and an additional Logo Gauge. The Logo Gauge appears to consistently run at least 0.35 psi above the (accurately calibrated)[14]:Appendix 1, 45 non-Logo gauge, but both were determined to be extremely consistent and precise. In particular, the Logo gauge is inaccurate (it runs high) but is precise (it consistently runs high by the same amount every time), and therefore can be used as additional confirmation that the non-Logo measurement is correct (with the exception of Colts ball #3, below). Wells believes that Blakeman and Prioleau used the Non-Logo and Logo gauges respectively in the Patriots halftime tests, and that the two of them switched gauges with each other for the Colts halftime test.

Even with the combined effect of wet vs. dry balls, temperature-driven pressure loss from the 50-degree Fahrenheit halftime game weather followed by partial temperature-driven pressure increase inside the warm locker room, and errors in measurement, Wells concluded that, while there is no absolute certainty, there was no studied "set of credible environmental or physical factors that completely accounts" for the total measured pressure loss.[14]:12 and 131

The Exponent science report concluded that no credible environmental or physical factors within the game characteristics fully explain the additional loss of pressure in the Patriots footballs relative to the Colts footballs.[14]:Exponent p68 #13

[Dmpsix]

Here is an actual credible and scientific source that eliminates any argument that the Patriot's intentionally or knowingly deflated the footballs to gain any competitive advantage.

VII. Scientific Evidence and Analysis
As noted above, scientific consultants were engaged to assist the investigative
team. These consultants included a team from Exponent, one of the leading scientific and
engineering consulting firms in the country, and Dr. Daniel R. Marlow, a tenured professor of
Physics at Princeton University and former Chairman of the Physics Department. Among other
things, we asked our expert consultants to evaluate the data collected on the day of the AFC
Championship Game and consider whether it provided a basis to reach any conclusions about the
likelihood that the Patriots had or had not tampered with the game balls.
111
Over the course of their work, our expert consultants:
 Conducted a thorough statistical analysis of the data recorded at halftime
of the AFC Championship Game;
 Conducted a comprehensive examination, both physical and statistical, of
the gauges used to measure the air pressure of the footballs pre-game and
at halftime; and
 Evaluated the effects that various usage, physical and environmental
factors present on game day would have had on the measured pressure of a
football.

Here is my source.
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com...championsh.pdf

So... it's a few angry average citizens' words against the word of Dr. Daniel Marlow, a well known Physics Professor from Princeton University that argues the potential advantage, likelihood and overall affect from the weather the Patriots' would've had with this scandal.

Sorry, you guys should stick to spy-gate. It's almost 2 decades old at this point, but hey it's better than nothing.

[Dmpsix]

One last thing I wanna mention, you DO realize the final score was 45 to 7 right?

Yes... 45 to 7

The Colts offense could've been playing with 15 men on the field and still would've got smoked that game. It's really time to just let these things go. Seriously, get over it.

[Kenny Camaro]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

You can strive for those advantages, without breaking the rules.

PMC, you stated that other teams have cheated, so if some teams cheat while others don't, the teams that don't will put themselfs at a disadvantage. I do not advacte cheating. This whole Patriots cheated thing is mute. I like Joes explanation on the "deflategate" issue from the physics aspect of it. The spy gate thing is weird because you can film, but not at this time, or not at this angle, other teams filmed. Bottom line, what they did was deemed illegal and the suffered the penalties of breaking the rules. What the Patriots do better than other organizations is identifying talent that fits there system. Then plan ways to exploit there opponents weakness and playing to their strengths. They out execute teams in planning and preparation. Then they out execute them with there performance on the field. This is what makes them the standard of the salary cap era, not there "cheating". I do agree with your statement of striving for advantages without breaking the rules.

[Joe M 2012 2SS]

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

PMC, you stated that other teams have cheated, so if some teams cheat while others don't, the teams that don't will put themselfs at a disadvantage. I do not advacte cheating. This whole Patriots cheated thing is mute. I like Joes explanation on the "deflategate" issue from the physics aspect of it. The spy gate thing is weird because you can film, but not at this time, or not at this angle, other teams filmed. Bottom line, what they did was deemed illegal and the suffered the penalties of breaking the rules. What the Patriots do better than other organizations is identifying talent that fits there system. Then plan ways to exploit there opponents weakness and playing to their strengths. They out execute teams in planning and preparation. Then they out execute them with there performance on the field. This is what makes them the standard of the salary cap era, not there "cheating". I do agree with your statement of striving for advantages without breaking the rules.

Not trying to thread jack here, but this is why I stated in a different thread that Shanahan's overly aggressive play calling, going against the best option, with a much higher risk play, is something you NEVER do against a team with the caliber of the PATS.

Execution of a low risk play that keeps you in a commanding position to win is always the best option against a strong team.

Look at the fantastic season Aaron Rodgers had. He had no supporting cast. Why? He makes 22 million a year.

Joe Flacco of the Ravens got a big deal as well from the SB he won when resigned with Baltimore. What happened to their defense after he got his 20 mil a year contract after the SB win in 2012? Adios amigos.

Matt Ryan is currently one of the highest paid QB's in the league. Is he worth more then double what Brady gets paid? No SB's......3-4 playoff record.
ATL's defense was ranked 25th in the league. Why? Between Ryan and Julio Jones, not much cash left to spend on defense.

The PATS had the 3rd best offense and the 4th best defense in the league this past season.

So if your an elite QB in the league, which would you rather have? 22 mil and an unbalanced team as a result of you hogging the money, or 9 mil and a strong supporting cast on both sides of the ball?

[Kenny Camaro]

I think you can make it work with one player around the twentish mark. Haveing two like Ryan and Jones makes it more difficult, but Atlanta came within a few minutes of doing so. I know Jones doesn't make twentish, but high anyways. The 2014 Lions had Stafford, Johnson, and Suh and we're contemplating tying up 51% of the salary cap on three players by paying Suh 14-16 million a year. Luckily Stephen Ross' money and Florida's lack of income tax, and much better weather got Suh to move down to Miami. Calvin retired last year and the salary cap going up substantially this off season, the Lions are 35 million or so under the cap. Hopefully Bob Quinn and his 16 years of Patriots front office, and scouting experience can bring the 'Patriots' way to Detroit.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Dmpsix

Incorrect, where are you getting your facts from? I actually did a research project on this in a Physic's course I did 2 semesters ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflategate

What am I incorrect on?

Originally Posted by Dmpsix

Here is an actual credible and scientific source that eliminates any argument that the Patriot's intentionally or knowingly deflated the footballs to gain any competitive advantage.



Here is my source.
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com...championsh.pdf

So... it's a few angry average citizens' words against the word of Dr. Daniel Marlow, a well known Physics Professor from Princeton University that argues the potential advantage, likelihood and overall affect from the weather the Patriots' would've had with this scandal.

Sorry, you guys should stick to spy-gate. It's almost 2 decades old at this point, but hey it's better than nothing.

This guy?
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/07/s...iots.html?_r=0

In a report commissioned by the National Football League and released Wednesday, a noted engineering firm and a Princeton physics professor concluded that an equation known as the Ideal Gas Law could not explain why the Patriots footballs were at such low pressures when they were measured at halftime of New England’s postseason victory over the Indianapolis Colts.

The report punctured a key assertion of some physicists around the country who believed that the temperature difference between the locker room, where the balls were inflated, and the playing field could provide an innocent explanation for the pressure drop. However, the balls were taken back to the locker room at halftime, where they warmed up again before the measurement, the report said. Therefore, the report concluded, “the reduction in pressure of the Patriots’ game balls cannot be explained completely by basic scientific principles

When contacted by phone, the Princeton physics professor, Daniel R. Marlow, said he could not discuss the topic.

Another science guy:

Timothy J. Gay, an experimental physicist at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln who happens to know Bill Belichick, the Patriots’ longtime coach, said the team could no longer hide behind the Ideal Gas Law.
“It sounds like they’ve got a guilty party,” Gay said. Because the Patriots’ game balls were taken back to the locker room before the pressure was measured, he said, the gas law “doesn’t account for” the pressure drop.

Originally Posted by Dmpsix

One last thing I wanna mention, you DO realize the final score was 45 to 7 right?

Yes... 45 to 7

The Colts offense could've been playing with 15 men on the field and still would've got smoked that game. It's really time to just let these things go. Seriously, get over it.

Just so we are clear, the outcome of the game has absolutely nothing to do with a team cheating, or trying to cheat. I really have to question why people keep bringing the score up. It makes absolutely no sense. A team, or person can cheat, and lose or win. it doesn't take away the fact that they cheated, per the NFL.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

PMC, you stated that other teams have cheated, so if some teams cheat while others don't, the teams that don't will put themselfs at a disadvantage. I do not advacte cheating. This whole Patriots cheated thing is mute. I like Joes explanation on the "deflategate" issue from the physics aspect of it. The spy gate thing is weird because you can film, but not at this time, or not at this angle, other teams filmed. Bottom line, what they did was deemed illegal and the suffered the penalties of breaking the rules. What the Patriots do better than other organizations is identifying talent that fits there system. Then plan ways to exploit there opponents weakness and playing to their strengths. They out execute teams in planning and preparation. Then they out execute them with there performance on the field. This is what makes them the standard of the salary cap era, not there "cheating". I do agree with your statement of striving for advantages without breaking the rules.

I agree with what I bolded. And hence why I still question their dynasty. again, if they didn't need to cheat, then why try pushing the boundaries past the legal limit? Where there's smoke, there's fire...

[Kenny Camaro]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

I agree with what I bolded. And hence why I still question their dynasty. again, if they didn't need to cheat, then why try pushing the boundaries past the legal limit? Where there's smoke, there's fire...

Read the first sentence of my quoted post to find the answer of this question...

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Joe M 2012 2SS

.

Yes the balls would have increased back up in 11 minutes of wait time to warm, due to them being wet though, it would have been slower. The Colts ball were inflated pre game to 13 PSI, but were not measured until they warmed.

The PATS had a long drive before halftime where their balls were exposed to the cold and rain, the Colts balls were inside a bag, not exposed to the same elements.

Here's what I'm saying, they didn't measure all the balls at the same time. they had to go one by one. so by the time they got to the last few pats balls, they should have been at least within .5 of 12.5. like the colts balls.

Lets not even get into "the deflator" and brady's phone just happened to break. the whole thing is fishy.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Kenny Camaro

Read the first sentence of my quoted post to find the answer of this question...

Ok, so they are just a team with no ethics and will cheat to win. Just as I expected. lol

Look, I know other teams have cheated, and during those times, I question their teams just as I do the Pats. So much controversy around them, and I don't feel they are honestly as great a dynasty because of it. Am I saying they are a completely terrible team? No, I can see that they are a very good team. It's just unfortunate that they are arrogant enough to think they can get away with blatant cheating. Belichick is a very smart coach, and if anyone doesn't think he knows every rule in the NFL, is just fooling themselves.

[Joe M 2012 2SS]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

Here's what I'm saying, they didn't measure all the balls at the same time. they had to go one by one. so by the time they got to the last few pats balls, they should have been at least within .5 of 12.5. like the colts balls.

Lets not even get into "the deflator" and brady's phone just happened to break. the whole thing is fishy.

Measuring the balls is quick, you stick the gauge in and get the reading. Re-inflating them to a specific PSI takes much more time. They measured the balls first before re-inflating any of them.

By the time they got to the Colts balls, the PSI was higher simply because they had the time to warm, and weren't exposed to the same conditions as the PATS balls when measured.

Also only four of the Colts balls were measured. The variance would have been different had they measured all 12 at the same time the PATS balls were measured. They had two different gauges, so they could have done both at the same time.

Of course the Colts balls were higher, they started out a half pound higher to begin with as they inflated them to 13 PSI vs 12.5 that the PATS did.

Physics states that at the temps the balls were exposed to, the AVG PSI should have been 11.32,, the AVG was 11.30.

The Colts balls had time to warm, so again based upon the laws of physics, they should have been closer to the original inflation.

Aside from physics, the score at halftime was 17-7 in favor of the PATS.

After the balls were re-inflated the PATS scored 28 more points to the Colts 0.
Brady's stats in the second half were perfect.

The PATS were by far the better team in this game. The Colts simply couldn't compete on either side of the ball.

The Colts player who intercepted a PATS ball in the first half admitted to this after this accusation was first brought about.