Ford possibly eyeing an 11-speed automatic transmission

[crysalis_01]

Turning it up to 11?


A new patent document published on April 9 by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office suggests that Ford is eyeing an 11-speed automatic transmission.


The document includes details for three different embodiments of the transmission using different combinations of clutches, brakes and gears. Currently the company has only announced plans for a 10-speed automatic transmission that will arrive in the 2017 F-150 Raptor pickup truck. Ford powertrain spokesman Paul Seredynski wouldn’t confirm that Ford is developing an 11-speed automatic transmission.


http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...nsmission.html


The patent was filed at the end of '13, so who knows how far development is (or isn't) on an 11-speed.

Some people think it's overkill, but it's not like it'll be 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11 every time. Modern trans have the ability to skip gears of theres no need for some. Its allowing tthe programming the larger range of gears to choose from where the benefits are seen.

What do you guys think?

[ChrisBlair]

I think it's awesome.

[jshaf]

waiting for the 12 speed, why settle for 11 really!

[Number 3]

Well keep in mind, many times companies simply want to protect the Intellectual Property of an idea. Doesn't mean they will do it.........................just prevent others from doing it.

[King T]

I remember this article from a few years ago. Seems like Ford had an idea back then about it

(From Sept. 2011)

Gears Galore: How Many Speeds Is Too Many?
Seven-speed, eight-speed, nine—the number of gears available in new cars continues to creep upward. But do you really need nine speeds—does it improve your car's performance?

Belts, chains, and gears: They've been the stuff of transmissions for 125 years. But today's gearboxes have as much in common with the transmission on Henry Ford's 1896 Quadracycle as your kid's balsawood glider has with the gone-missing hypersonic Falcon HTV-2.

Today, traditional manuals and torque-converter-equipped automatics share the road with continuously variable transmissions (CVTs), dual-clutch automated manuals, electrified automatics, and power-split electric motor transmissions. And though two- and three-speed automatics and four- to five-speed manuals ruled for decades, new transmissions offer seven, eight and even nine forward gears. As the gear count in new cars approaches double digits, we have to wonder: What's with the rush for more speeds, and how many is too many?

The Latest Gear Counts

The latest craze amongst manufacturers is the eight-speed automatic transmission. BMW, Audi, Lexus, and Porsche currently offer octo-geared automatic transmissions with traditional torque converters and planetary gearsets. Ford has committed to manufacturing its own eight-speed automatic in-house. Chrysler recently announced it would license ZF-built eight-speeds to pair with the Pentastar V6 as a $1000 option.

But you can always go higher. Fiat/Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne says ZF's new nine-speed automatic could go into new front-wheel-drive offerings beginning in 2013. Mercedes-Benz is known to be developing a nine-speed version of its G-Tronic gearbox to back its AMG performance models.

It's not just automatics that are seeing the gear count creep ever upward. Manual transmissions have been relegated to either performance or low-price fuel-miser cars in recent years, but even they are seeing the trend. Porsche unveiled its all-new 911 at the Frankfurt auto show, showing off a new seven-speed manual option.

Why More Gears?

According to Ford Motor Company's chief engineer of transmissions, Craig Renneker, more gears give powertrain engineers more gear spread to work with. This means first gear can be shorter for better off-the-line acceleration while the top gears can be taller for better fuel economy. Having more gears allows smaller, more economical engines to power larger vehicles or improves the efficiency of existing engines.

"If you had asked me five years ago whether an eight-speed would give better efficiency, I would have said no," Renneker says, "because the additional sixth clutch required for an eight-speed would have created more internal drag [parasitic energy loss] than the added gear span could offer. We've recently discovered how to reduce the clutch drag losses so that eight gears are beneficial. Now it makes sense to jump from the five clutches required for a six-speed, and the overall package saves 2 to 6 percent in fuel economy."

Porsche spokesman Dave Engelman says his company's bold step to a seven-speed manual—a highly modified version of the current Porsche PDK automated manual—was also motivated by fuel economy. "Traditionally, Porsche models with manual transmissions hit their top speed in top gear (sixth). The new seventh gear is taller, lowering engine rpm at any given speed, thereby decreasing fuel consumption and CO2 output without compromising acceleration or top speed."

How Many Is Too Many?

Each manufacturer answers this question differently. Beyond offering smoother shifts, better fuel efficiency, and improved acceleration, a higher gear count also helps marketing simply by giving customers the impression that the car is packed with sophisticated technology (wow, seven speeds!) But some automakers eschew new and higher ratios in the name of product reliability.

Ford's Renneker says, "Even though one of our competitors is coming out with a nine-speed, we felt the added complexity wasn't beneficial. We can't really find the value in using nine gears right now. We can do everything we want, and what we think the customer needs, with eight."

As for more than nine gears, Renneker says, "In the future, we may come to find a good arrangement, say, for example, for an 11-speed transmission. This could make sense if we can get the losses low enough, but first we'd need to find a good use for 11 speeds. Perhaps some specialized operation like an ultralow first creeper gear? We'll have to see."

Shifting Into the Future

More speeds is only part of the picture. The new kinds of transmissions available are also changing how drivers think about changing gears. The continuously variable transmission can pick from a nearly limitless choice of ratios, theoretically making fixed-gear transmissions obsolete. Practically, however, scaling up CVTs to handle the power of bigger engines tends to eliminate their efficiency advantage compared to modern conventional automatics and dual-clutch automated manuals. CVTs also tend to leave customers feeling odd about the driving experience, as the engine and transmission don't behave the way most drivers are used to.

So predictions of the ultimate extinction of the manual gearbox may be premature. Manual transmissions continue to be the most energy-efficient gearbox available, regardless of what fuel-economy labels say. The number of vehicles with manuals will continue to drop, but there will be a segment of the driving public that wants to shift for itself.

Electrified transmissions will certainly become more prevalent, as evidenced by BMW's ActiveHybrid models, the Mercedes-Benz S400 Hybrid, and the Honda CRZ. When asked whether Ford's new eight-speed would include a hybrid variant, Renneker said, "Any new transmission we do is developed with this in mind. It's definitely on our radar that we would look at what it would take to electrify this transmission."

All these transmissions will have their place, Renneker tells PM: "What's interesting in the (transmission) industry today is while dual-clutch transmissions were under development, the planetary units were not standing still. They were getting better and better. As a result, there's no one clear transmission type emerging as 'The Future.' DCTs, planetary, and CVTs are all alive and being developed, and all have a niche. As fuel-economy regulations become tougher and tougher, there's going to be more customization that defines the optimum transmission for each application."

[stoopid]

Just make beefier CVTs for crying out loud and get it over with.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by stoopid

Just make beefier CVTs for crying out loud and get it over with.

I believe the other issue besides the frailty of CVT's is that their parasitic losses are much higher than that of a conventional automatic. So beefing up the belts to withstand more power would only exacerbate the issue. To make them stronger would end up causing losses in drive train efficiency.

So if we can give the onboard computer enough gears to keep the engine at optimal efficiency while allowing for decreases in transmission parasitic losses, then CVT's might become irrelevant.

[stoopid]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

I believe the other issue besides the frailty of CVT's is that their parasitic losses are much higher than that of a conventional automatic. So beefing up the belts to withstand more power would only exacerbate the issue. To make them stronger would end up causing losses in drive train efficiency.

So if we can give the onboard computer enough gears to keep the engine at optimal efficiency while allowing for decreases in transmission parasitic losses, then CVT's might become irrelevant.

This article (not sure its accuracy, plus it's 7+ yrs old) suggests automatics are slightly less efficient than CVTs (14% loss v CVT 10-12%):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195202379/...rnative-to-CVT

I always thought CVTs were going to be the eventual transmissions for all small/medium cars.

[Ragnar]

Sounds complicated and heavy to me, that is interesting.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by stoopid

This article (not sure its accuracy, plus it's 7+ yrs old) suggests automatics are slightly less efficient than CVTs (14% loss v CVT 10-12%):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195202379/...rnative-to-CVT

I always thought CVTs were going to be the eventual transmissions for all small/medium cars.

You might have a good point there, but with the R&D going into transmissions in the last 7 years since that article have seen the efficiency of conventional automatics rise greatly.

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Sounds complicated and heavy to me, that is interesting.

Remember that 11-speeds doesn't mean 11 different gear sets. Some are achieved via combinations.

This 11-speed design is described as only having one more clutch over the 8HP and 8L90, but the same amount of planetary gear sets. In fact, the doc shows the same amount of gear sets and clutches as the upcoming 10-speed, but must be arranged differently to make a usable 11th gear.

[stoopid]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

You might have a good point there, but with the R&D going into transmissions in the last 7 years since that article have seen the efficiency of conventional automatics rise greatly.

I believe you, but can't find much online that supports this. Seems like most of what I find still cites the 15% rule.

It's a different discussion anyway.

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by jshaf

waiting for the 12 speed, why settle for 11 really!

...but these go to eleven.

[King T]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Sounds complicated and heavy to me, that is interesting.

Probably not as heavy as you would think. Just like how the 8L90 8-speed is lighter and takes the same amount of space as the 6L80 6-speed, or how the the Mercedes-Benz 9G-Tronic 9-speed is lighter and slightly more compact than the 7G-Tronic 7 speed it replaces.





We don't know how much the 10-speed weighs, but I'm sure they can make the 11 speed right at the same

[EFI]

I get the whole "more gears is better" but eventually that has to end. You already have these transmissions "skipping gears" when appropriate, so this tells me that part throttle driving is already exhausting the number of gears needed to happen smoothly and efficiently. What's the point of more if you are already not using all the existing ones?

At a certain point with so many close gears together, it might as well be a CVT.