Global Warming Tax

[Kyle2k]

But what is the country without an infrastructure that helps the workers get to work, get the students educated, etc. If you don't care about things like helping others with healthcare, why would you care if they were harmed in a terrorist attack? It just doesn't make sense to me? Or is it because of the potential that they could harm you and your family and no one else? Secondly, you act like the poor pay absolutely no taxes...there is sales tax, etc, maybe they need to trace your money and see what it actually goes in to. You might be surpised that you will end up seeing a lot of the money you pay. Unless your a millionaire or something....

[swazworth]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

Please for the love of god don't throw the word liberal around. I will go flat out and say I am liberal, but this is just ridiculous. This isn't liberal, this isn't socialist, its like....extremist environmentalist insanity. Since when did California get all this power to pass crap like this too?

really i would have never guessed.

1. look the whole thing about taxes is that it only ends up being a group of people that pay them. not the whole group, just part of the group. take this "carbon tax" for example. who pays? people who buy gas...not people who ride the bus. so you want to charge me extra $$$ for a gallon of gas, then people who ride the bus should do the same.
or
2. how about this instead of people getting more back on their income tax returns by claiming 3 or 4 or 5 kids. we charge bigger familys more income tax as a "carbon tax" because they are leaving a bigger "carbon footprint" then people like myself who only has a wife.

3. Cali, gets all this power to do things like this because people that state let them. go out and vote for people you want in office and get the ones you don't want in out.

check it out


Kyle2k your 19, i know when i was 19 i felt alot of the same way you do right now. then i got married, bought a house, pay my bills and all my taxes. now i think a little differently. check out the link and you will see how much the millionares pay in taxes.

This year's numbers show that both the income share earned by the top 1 percent and the tax share paid by the top 1 percent have reached all-time highs. In 2005, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.4 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 21.2 percent of adjusted gross income, both of which are significantly higher than 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of AGI and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes.

link to that->
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

i could go on and on and show you that rich people pay alot of taxes. no i'm not one of them, i'm upper middle class and i pay my fair share. i really think that we should all americans pay the same amount. that is the only way to make it fair, there are two options. a comsumption tax, or a flat tax.

just my two cents......sorry about the

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Silverado

First, don't apologize for the opinion...you are entitled to it.

But, let me throw this out to you...

How self centered am I actually being when I don't want to see my tax dollars (the amount of which I have no control over) going to fund something that I cannot even use. And, I mean cannot use. I don't want to use it, but it doesn't matter because I can't. There is no mass transit where I live. Yes, there is mass transit in Omaha, but not in the part of town I live in. Not the part of town I work in, where I shop, where my family lives, where my friends are, anything that I do....it doesn't exist here. So why should I have to pay for it?

You ask "What of the rights of the less fortunate?" Yeah, what of it? What rights? Mass transportation is not a right. It is a privilege. Don't talk to me about "entitled privileges" for the less fortunate. I've been busting my ass for the last 20 years so that I could afford some of those privileges. Those with less means should have less. Period.

I'm not opposed to helping people, but in general, yeah, I'm totally against the taking of my money so it can be given to someone else. If I have to bust my ass all these years to hand my money to someone else, I want to choose who that someone else is, how often I give them something and how much. If that makes me self centered...fine, then I am the most self centered son of bitch on the planet.

The government is only supposed to pay for a couple things (based on a little thing known as the Constitution). Things like the defense of this country. Not making sure every single person has a subsidized bus/train ride every day.

I think we ended up in a similar discussion 6 months ago, about healthcare, schooling, and/or water. Anyway, mass transit isn't as serious an issue as those other topics but the principle still holds. And I probably went too far talking about the rights of the less fortunate. Its not that they don't have rights, its just that they are no different than others. And while your outlook seems to place yourself (and your family) above others, you aren't the most self centered SOB on the planet. Not sure who is, but its not you. Getting back to the discussion . . .

You say those with less means should have less. Sounds reasonable. But why do some have more and others have less? I have less because I am a student who hardly has enough time to complete all my assignments, attend class, and sleep. I cannot afford a job. I am doing all this so that I can get a good job in the near future. Without the help of tax dollars paying for my education through untill highschool, government grants to create this university, government funding to keep it running I would not have the opportunity that I have now. And I am much more valuable as an engineer than as a warehouse worker (I've done it, its not for me).

Using similar logic, if people are in a situation where they cannot afford a car, they must somehow get to work. Often, mass transit is the most practical way to do this. If public funding were pulled from mass transit, prices would rise and coverage would drop. Doesn't effect you though, you can't use it anyway, right? What about those who can no longer get to their job? Maybe they could get jobs someplace else, maybe they can get a ride, or something. But modern cities tend to seperate workplaces from homes so a commute is practically required. Regardless, they will have an impact on you because everyone in society is connected.

Also, the most affected people are those who cannot afford a car. this would result in fare increases on the order of 100% to get a reduced system. Compare this to a 3% tax on gasoline, plus other better hidden funding. Also, by consuming more of their meager income they are less likely to advance to the point where they can afford a car and then pay the gas tax. Given a choice, few people would pick the bus over a car. Some will, most won't.

[Silverado]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

But what is the country without an infrastructure that helps the workers get to work, get the students educated, etc. If you don't care about things like helping others with healthcare, why would you care if they were harmed in a terrorist attack? It just doesn't make sense to me? Or is it because of the potential that they could harm you and your family and no one else? Secondly, you act like the poor pay absolutely no taxes...there is sales tax, etc, maybe they need to trace your money and see what it actually goes in to. You might be surpised that you will end up seeing a lot of the money you pay. Unless your a millionaire or something....

I don't act like the poor pay absoutely no taxes. They don't pay their fair share, and that's my biggest issue. As Sawz mentioned in his post following yours, everyone should pay their share. But, it isn't a dollar amount, it's a percentage. Consumption tax would be best....everyone pays their share, yet everyone controls their own taxes. Flat tax would work too, but then not everyone is paying, just those that have jobs.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Wow, you really hate taxes that much eh? Look at it this way: the people that are causing the problem are providing the solution. Thats the principle behind this. Now, calling it a global warming tax or whatever they decided to call it . . . thats a bit much. But I completely agree with using gasoline taxes to fund mass transit. Because for every person that rides a bus is one less person causing trafic congestion. And traffic is a massive problem in places like LA. The more funding that mass transit gets the more its service can expand and the more effective it can be. If subsidising were pulled you would see a massive rise in the number of cars on the street. And that would cause much longer traffic delays and cause you to waste gas, costing you money anyway.

and an extra $0.09/gal is nothing. We pay around $4/gal in southern ontario and thats about as cheap as you will find in Canada, and its about $0.60 more than typical american prices. All that differance comes from taxes. In europe its much worse. The euros spend the extra money on mass transit and it has worked out great.

I have to get some of this off my chest:

I cannot get over how self centered Americans tend to be. Its all about the rights of the individual. Opposing mass transit funding and opposing health care because it will take your money and give it to someone else. What of the rights of the less fortunate? I am a student, I can't afford the time to have a job and I don't have the money for a car. Without public transit, living would be pretty difficult. Without tax payers helping out, mass transit would be either non existant here or extremely limited and fairly expensive. And so I would be forced to accept that because I am not in a situation where I can use a car. Could I manage? yes. But it would cost me an extra $10 to get groceries each week, just as one example. I would have to pay $50 to go home and see my family who live 2 hours away. to people with jobs, thats an annoyance. to someone who has an annual income of -$10 000 its a bit more important.

I'm sorry for the rant, I'm just one for the little guy. I don't want to hyjack this thread with an off topic debate. So please keep replys to the issue at hand.

If you want to see us that way then you are more than entitled to that opinion.

Know this, America and Americans are as successful as we are because we believe you make your own way. If you want to cheer for the little guy, fine. Instead of helping him to stay put and be supported by those of us who are making our own way, help him to have more wealth and peace of mind than he would other wise have by giving him tools to make his own way. The American Dream, I see it in people every day. And not just those of us with houses and cars. Mostly I see it in those who are willing to grab their own bootstraps and be prosperous. And not prosperous in how much stuff you have. That's the world's take on The American Dream. The REAL American Dream is shown in how well you care for those you love and are accountable to.

You want to say that mass transit is a way to help the little guy? Great. At what point does the little guy pay his own way? At what point is there any motivation to be a better provider for his family if he has everything he needs. Don't have a job? Get unemployment. Can't work? Get welfare. Need food? Get food stamps. Can't afford a car?, Ride the bus. You tell me when it ends.

For you to say what you did in this post shows you don't have a clue why Americans are the way we are. You're on the outside looking in.

It's already been said, Taxes are the reason we fought for independence. And, the reason people came to this country is so they could make their own way.

The U.S. is becoming a welfare society and we don't like it. So give us a little room to comment honestly about the way our country is changing.

I guess the good news for you is, you don't live here.

[Kyle2k]

You realize that if they pay "their share" they potentially might not be able to eat for week, but thats ok. I have a new idea that might make you feel better about paying taxes. You seem to really support the defense so, lets say ALL your taxes are going to fund the military (I don't know how much that is, but lets say 1 to 1/2 of a smart bomb. There, your taxes went into what you believe in. Now, its my turn to pay taxes, so, mine are going to education, healthcare, etc. Doesn't that make you feel better? lol, I mean seriously...keep it on a psychological level. Who cares if its actually split up into various things. Mine theorectically won't go into the military and yours theoretically won't go into healthcare.... I don't know if you get my point, but this whole tax thing and where it is going is a little ridiculous.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Silverado

I don't act like the poor pay absoutely no taxes. They don't pay their fair share, and that's my biggest issue. As Sawz mentioned in his post following yours, everyone should pay their share. But, it isn't a dollar amount, it's a percentage. Consumption tax would be best....everyone pays their share, yet everyone controls their own taxes. Flat tax would work too, but then not everyone is paying, just those that have jobs.

Consumption tax is the only way to ensure that everyone, criminals included, pays taxes. Also, it allows you to control what you pay in taxes. If you don't buy stuff you don't pay taxes. Beautiful. http://www.FairTax.org

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

If you want to see us that way then you are more than entitled to that opinion.

Know this, America and Americans are as successful as we are because we believe you make your own way. If you want to cheer for the little guy, fine. Instead of helping him to stay put and be supported by those of us who are making our own way, help him to have more wealth and peace of mind than he would other wise have by giving him tools to make his own way. The American Dream, I see it in people every day. And not just those of us with houses and cars. Mostly I see it in those who are willing to grab their own bootstraps and be prosperous. And not prosperous in how much stuff you have. That's the world's take on The American Dream. The REAL American Dream is shown in how well you care for those you love and are accountable to.

You want to say that mass transit is a way to help the little guy? Great. At what point does the little guy pay his own way? At what point is there any motivation to be a better provider for his family if he has everything he needs. Don't have a job? Get unemployment. Can't work? Get welfare. Need food? Get food stamps. Can't afford a car?, Ride the bus. You tell me when it ends.

For you to say what you did in this post shows you don't have a clue why Americans are the way we are. You're on the outside looking in.

It's already been said, Taxes are the reason we fought for independence. And, the reason people came to this country is so they could make their own way.

The U.S. is becoming a welfare society and we don't like it. So give us a little room to comment honestly about the way our country is changing.

I guess the good news for you is, you don't live here.

See this is where your logic is absolutely moot, you aren't helping him by taking away funding that helps pay for tuition, transportation, healthcare, etc...you are taking the tools away. He can't get to school, he doesn't learn, he can't get to work, he can't earn money and spend it to boost the economy, he can't get healthcare for a decent price, he'll have to make sacrifices like not going to work or school etc. Do you understand the connection I am trying to make? Because there is one, for instance, I live in ND the government gave people land here to start farming, working etc (and just to live here lol) Everyone needs help or gets help and thats what can help the prosper. I would truly like to see you dumped off in the middle of the street without any money/without memories of your education/transportation/etc and see if you can work back to your current income based on your work ethic. If you do thats great, and I would like you to prove me wrong, but I don't think it would happen.

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

Consumption tax is the only way to ensure that everyone, criminals included, pays taxes. Also, it allows you to control what you pay in taxes. If you don't buy stuff you don't pay taxes. Beautiful. http://www.FairTax.org

So what if people like bill gates quits buying stuff or finds ways to purchase things without going through the U.S tax system? Guess we'll just give our soldiers 5 bullets like the Russians in WW2 and they can scrounge amongst the gunfire, our kids need school? Nah (hope you have enough money for private school)

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

You realize that if they pay "their share" they potentially might not be able to eat for week, but thats ok. I have a new idea that might make you feel better about paying taxes. You seem to really support the defense so, lets say ALL your taxes are going to fund the military (I don't know how much that is, but lets say 1 to 1/2 of a smart bomb. There, your taxes went into what you believe in. Now, its my turn to pay taxes, so, mine are going to education, healthcare, etc. Doesn't that make you feel better? lol, I mean seriously...keep it on a psychological level. Who cares if its actually split up into various things. Mine theorectically won't go into the military and yours theoretically won't go into healthcare.... I don't know if you get my point, but this whole tax thing and where it is going is a little ridiculous.

The problem is it isn't FAIR. If everyone payed 10% of their income in taxes and there were no loop holes or ways to hide money than your argument holds true and we'd have nothing to say. The problem is, in the case of this "global warming tax" The people who don't benefit from mass transit are the ones paying for it. We all benefit from having a military. That's why charities and non profit organizations exist. If you want to send your hard earned money to someone who needs it you can. It's not the Gov's place to tell me where my money should go when it's not collected at the same percentage as everyone else.

[Kyle2k]

Edit. Emotions got the best of me.

[jhitson]

If you want more, you work harder. At least thats the way it used to be. Now if you want more, you cry harder. If someone wants or needs to ride the bus, fine ride the bus. Just don't ask me to pay for it. I don't want or need to ride the bus. Why should I pay for a bus ride? Because I can afford a car? I didn't want to ride the bus, So I worked hard to make enough money to buy a car. Now I don't ride the bus.
Work=Money
Money=Work
When people realize this, we will all be better off.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

See this is where your logic is absolutely moot, you aren't helping him by taking away funding that helps pay for tuition, transportation, healthcare, etc...you are taking the tools away. He can't get to school, he doesn't learn, he can't get to work, he can't earn money and spend it to boost the economy, he can't get healthcare for a decent price, he'll have to make sacrifices like not going to work or school etc. Do you understand the connection I am trying to make? Because there is one, for instance, I live in ND the government gave people land here to start farming, working etc (and just to live here lol) Everyone needs help or gets help and thats what can help the prosper. I would truly like to see you dumped off in the middle of the street without any money/without memories of your education/transportation/etc and see if you can work back to your current income based on your work ethic. If you do thats great, and I would like you to prove me wrong, but I don't think it would happen.

Again you missed my point. If we all pay the same amount in taxes and these public benefits cost, in percentage, the same to everyone then I have no argument. The global warming tax isn't paid for by those who use it. It's paid for by those of us who have earned enough money to afford their own car. If they raised the cost of riding the subway and the bus by the same amount then I'd shut my mouth and grin and bear it.

But make no mistake there are very few people in the US that if dropped off in the middle of nowhere with their families and just the clothes on their backs, wouldn't be able to get back on their feet in little or no time. Because we know how to suck it up, put more water in the stew, and get to work. And even if I'm making less then 1% of what I'm making now. I'd still want to pay my fair share in taxes. I'm successful because I worked hard to become so. Not because the government gave me success. There are plenty of high school drop outs that have become quite successful in this country, and many more of them who walked to work.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

Edit. Emotions got the best of me.

Me too.

Thanks for the PM. Very Cool!