Whats up with GM?

[linc400]

Originally Posted by Wicked 6

I disagree.

It has LONG been known for an absolute fact that V6 model Mustangs FAR outsell V8 models, and depending on who you believe, same with Camaro and Challenger.

Enthusiasts often make the fatal mistake of not realizing that while most people may want a sports car, only a die hard is shelling out $40k + for a Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger.

It's Joe Smith who is married with kids, has an SUV, and is looking for a toy but only has $25k tops to spend, pretty much the whole middle class, and parents buying their kids a first car that makes it possible for the V6 to sell, thus allowing the profit necessary to make the V8 trims.

Anybody who says that sales of top trim levels prop up bottom trim levels is crazy. For example, Ferrari. Do you see them making smaller engined cars to sell for $25k? No. Every car they sell is a beast. But....every car is also six figures.

If there were no V6 models to make profit on, your SS would be $70k easy and the ZL1 would still be on a piece of paper in someone's trash can. Same for GT500s, SRT products, etc.

Another example: Dodge. Ever seen a V6 Viper? Checked prices lately? Compare those prices to the Charger and Challenger which have V6 models. See where I'm coming from?

Big blocks need V6 sales now more than ever with the economy in the tank.

That's my $.02.

While I agree with this, I think you missed the point. Yes, most Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers sold are V6's. But if there were no V8-high models, sales would suffer. People go to the dealership to see the high end mega horsepower model, but reality sets in when they are in the finance office, and they go home with a V6 or maybe even a Malibu 4 door.

If only V6's were made, they would not get anywhere the attention they do in magazines, by car enthusiasts, or just someone looking for something other than a midsize 4 door.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Wicked 6

I disagree.

It has LONG been known for an absolute fact that V6 model Mustangs FAR outsell V8 models, and depending on who you believe, same with Camaro and Challenger.

Enthusiasts often make the fatal mistake of not realizing that while most people may want a sports car, only a die hard is shelling out $40k + for a Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger.

It's Joe Smith who is married with kids, has an SUV, and is looking for a toy but only has $25k tops to spend, pretty much the whole middle class, and parents buying their kids a first car that makes it possible for the V6 to sell, thus allowing the profit necessary to make the V8 trims.

Anybody who says that sales of top trim levels prop up bottom trim levels is crazy. For example, Ferrari. Do you see them making smaller engined cars to sell for $25k? No. Every car they sell is a beast. But....every car is also six figures.

If there were no V6 models to make profit on, your SS would be $70k easy and the ZL1 would still be on a piece of paper in someone's trash can. Same for GT500s, SRT products, etc.

Another example: Dodge. Ever seen a V6 Viper? Checked prices lately? Compare those prices to the Charger and Challenger which have V6 models. See where I'm coming from?

Big blocks need V6 sales now more than ever with the economy in the tank.

That's my $.02.

Probably true that V-6 sells more, but not sure that others are necessarily losing them money...maybe profit margin isn't as high.
Sure you are right, the "top of the line" probably isn't always the best seller, but it seems they always tout those in advertising, ZL1, convertibles,...models that most can't buy, but the "vibe" of the pricier models gets people into the showroom...

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Heaven_is_inferno_orange

GM made us an incredible car that is safe, holds up well, and still performs. I see nothing to complain about.
Also the ZL1 is an all around track car. Not just a drag car. The beauty of the ZL1 is that it can perform on a road track, it can perform on a drag strip, and it can perform as a daily driver. I think GM did an outstanding job on the ZL1.

I agree, but you're making it sound like the GT500 does not do all those things equally well or better. It does and the information/performance data that is coming out about that car supports it.

To suggest the ZL1 is versatile and well-rounded while the GT500 is not is disingenuous.

Let the ford fanboys pay around 70K to get a track ready car. Thats at least 10K a ZL1 buyer has in his pocket for mods.

$70K? Where did you come up with that number. Base(54995)+performance pac(3495)+track pac(2995)=$61,485. That's with warranty intact. Modify your ZL1 with the extra $5,990 difference in cost between the two in similar trim and your warranty goes bye-bye.

I'm not sure how they do math in KY, but $5,990 rounded up is $6,000, not $10,000.

[v6sonoma]

Originally Posted by Wicked 6

I disagree.

It has LONG been known for an absolute fact that V6 model Mustangs FAR outsell V8 models, and depending on who you believe, same with Camaro and Challenger.

Enthusiasts often make the fatal mistake of not realizing that while most people may want a sports car, only a die hard is shelling out $40k + for a Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger.

It's Joe Smith who is married with kids, has an SUV, and is looking for a toy but only has $25k tops to spend, pretty much the whole middle class, and parents buying their kids a first car that makes it possible for the V6 to sell, thus allowing the profit necessary to make the V8 trims.

Anybody who says that sales of top trim levels prop up bottom trim levels is crazy. For example, Ferrari. Do you see them making smaller engined cars to sell for $25k? No. Every car they sell is a beast. But....every car is also six figures.

If there were no V6 models to make profit on, your SS would be $70k easy and the ZL1 would still be on a piece of paper in someone's trash can. Same for GT500s, SRT products, etc.

Another example: Dodge. Ever seen a V6 Viper? Checked prices lately? Compare those prices to the Charger and Challenger which have V6 models. See where I'm coming from?

Big blocks need V6 sales now more than ever with the economy in the tank.

That's my $.02.

I can say this is not accurate. I know for a fact that SS was designed to be far more profitable than the V6. Due to the lower sales of the V8 compared to the V6 they want to be more competitive at the V6 level and the higher profit baked into the cost of the SS trim level helps to pay for the lower production volume of the SS. I don't know where the ZL1 stands as it didn't exist at the time and wasn't even on the radar. That said the V6 trim levels are not loosing money they are just not marking them up as much as they are the SS.

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by tooslow

$70K? Where did you come up with that number. Base(54995)+performance pac(3495)+track pac(2995)=$61,485. That's with warranty intact. Modify your ZL1 with the extra $5,990 difference in cost between the two in similar trim and your warranty goes bye-bye.

I'm not sure how they do math in KY, but $5,990 rounded up is $6,000, not $10,000.

If you want navigation and Recaro seats, the price is $65,420. Luckily you can't get heated seats or optional wheels with the track pack, so that might save you some money.

[ShowSStopper]

Originally Posted by v6sonoma

I can say this is not accurate. I know for a fact that SS was designed to be far more profitable than the V6. Due to the lower sales of the V8 compared to the V6 they want to be more competitive at the V6 level and the higher profit baked into the cost of the SS trim level helps to pay for the lower production volume of the SS. I don't know where the ZL1 stands as it didn't exist at the time and wasn't even on the radar. That said the V6 trim levels are not loosing money they are just not marking them up as much as they are the SS.

Car makers would never continue to produce a car that doesn't make profit...I never said the V6 wasn't turning profits. In fact, the inverse is true. There's less profit in the SS due to the more expensive components. The LFX engine is a far cheaper mill than the LS3 I would imagine. Otherwise, where did they spend the money to justify the cost?

Anyway, its an interesting conversation to have but everyone has their own theory on what the real deal is. And thats cool.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Butcher

If you want navigation and Recaro seats, the price is $65,420. Luckily you can't get heated seats or optional wheels with the track pack, so that might save you some money.

If you are opting for those optional pacs, I seriously doubt you would choose the navigation, especially since you can get turn-by-turn directions for free through SYNC. Recaro's would be nice, but as evidenced by the ZL1, certainly not necessary. Again, I was trying to equip the GT500 to compare as closely as possible to the ZL1.

[MikeSVX]

Originally Posted by Wicked 6

Car makers would never continue to produce a car that doesn't make profit...I never said the V6 wasn't turning profits. In fact, the inverse is true. There's less profit in the SS due to the more expensive components. The LFX engine is a far cheaper mill than the LS3 I would imagine. Otherwise, where did they spend the money to justify the cost?

Anyway, its an interesting conversation to have but everyone has their own theory on what the real deal is. And thats cool.

It's the other way around. The profit margin is higher for each SS sold, because the projected sales number was lower. The cost of development on the LS3 has already been covered because the same engine was used in other models such as the Corvette. The LFX is a newer engine so there as been less time to recoup the costs. I know the engine is also used in other models which will recover some of the cost. The LS3 isn't much more exspensive to build then the LSX. It isn't hand built like the LS7s are. Like I said earlier, when the Camaro first came out, they sold many more SS models then GM exspected to. It help GM pay back there government loans early. I'm sure it wasn't the only reason, but it definitly helped.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by MikeSVX

It's the other way around. The profit margin is higher for each SS sold, because the projected sales number was lower. The cost of development on the LS3 has already been covered because the same engine was used in other models such as the Corvette. The LFX is a newer engine so there as been less time to recoup the costs. I know the engine is also used in other models which will recover some of the cost. The LS3 isn't much more exspensive to build then the LSX. It isn't hand built like the LS7s are. Like I said earlier, when the Camaro first came out, they sold many more SS models then GM exspected to. It help GM pay back there government loans early. I'm sure it wasn't the only reason, but it definitly helped.

Too bad the loan portion of the bailout amount was only a minor percentage of the billions that were sunk into the company to save it. Hey, did you hear, Chrysler has also paid back the loan portion of their bailout, too, and without a Camaro in their lineup.

[MikeSVX]

Hey, did you know Ford got government backing too. They just did it in a different way. They didn't take the money out right. Instead the government financed there sales through there ford credit bank.

[Bad@ssCamaro]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Too bad the loan portion of the bailout amount was only a minor percentage of the billions that were sunk into the company to save it. Hey, did you hear, Chrysler has also paid back the loan portion of their bailout, too, and without a Camaro in their lineup.

Why is it that you're afraid to list what you drive in your avatar? Afraid that people will hate on you for what you are driving? We got plenty of Mustang and Dodge, Bimmer people in here that list there vehicles, I list mine and it's a Pontiac! Damn good car.

You've been on this forum long enough, what have you got to hide? Makes you look suspicious and most of the people think you're just a Ford Fanboy(girl) since you talk about it and defend it so much, and talk smack about GM. You got a VW?, so what, be proud of what you drive and show it. I think it's just shows a level of disrespect because the rest of us show and talk about all of our rides and you don't. NOT COOL!

[Bhobbs]

I agree with the OP. The whole point of the pony car wars was to put out the best car you can and beat your competition. The ZL1 was GMs best pony car and it was the best for a month or two. If 1/4 mile times don't matter, then why are there so many posts about this car vs this car and that car vs that car? If horse power didn't matter then why are car companies sinking millions or even billions of dollars into developing the next high performance engine? If looks were all that mattered, then a high milage low horse power engine would be more than enough as long as the car looked good, and for a lot of people that's the case but for the people willing to shell out the money for a V8, they do it for the performance and the ability to say my car has X hp and X torque.

[djsnoflake]

I love all the guys dumping on the OP. He is completely right. Wanting a car to perform as bragged about by GM brass gets you called a blue oval fanboy by a moderator? Well isn't that special.

Guys like the OP who want a car to dominate is why GM is around, otherwise we'd all be stuck with 4 banger Toyotas.

I honestly didn't really care about GT500 stats until you start reading the crap guys like Al O start spouting about the ZL-1 being Jesus returned from the dead. I put a lot of stock in a man's word, and some of the GM brass' word is worth nothing now.

If you make a promise, deliver. If you know you can't, don't say anything, cause you just end up looking fake.

[locoycabron]

try turning in any mustang! they suck! period...