The 2011+ Mustang Thread

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by meanmike

I agree there were a few that did complain about the GT vs Camaro wich was dumb. However there are far more that did complain and still do when the Camaro and GT500 are compared.



I expected a better response than this from the guy that always has something to say. I guess you know what I said to be true.

Ok, let me put it bluntly: How many comparisons between the GT500 and Camaro have there been on this website alone? Regardless of whether you or I think it's "ok". There's your answer. Is that simple enough?

[Huggerorange73]

Originally Posted by meanmike

I agree there were a few that did complain about the GT vs Camaro wich was dumb. However there are far more that did complain and still do when the Camaro and GT500 are compared.

I think last year the comparision was more warranted....however, this year the GT and SS are a solid match up ( M6 vs M6 ).

I think the comparision of the GT500 vs a NA SS is pretty silly as the GT500 should whoop the Camaro. They both weigh the same, but the 500 has a pretty serious HP advantage.

All those comparisions in the mags and vids do what they are intended to do...sell magazines, drive web traffic and fire up internet forum debates!

[meanmike]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Ok, let me put it bluntly: How many comparisons between the GT500 and Camaro have there been on this website alone? Regardless of whether you or I think it's "ok". There's your answer. Is that simple enough?

Many! I even agreed with you about comparing it with the Vette. But dont kid yourself most of those threads are started by non Mustang owners.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by meanmike

Many! I even agreed with you about comparing it with the Vette. But dont kid yourself most of those threads are started by non Mustang owners.

That's your self-determined measurement for fanboy-ism. I subscribe to the "Do they always post anti-Camaro" theory to determine what a Mustang/whatever fanboy is.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

The big factor is weight? Seriously? I would consider the "big factor(s)" to be price-point and vehicle class, the latter being the most important. The base taurus and camaro are similar weights. . . If weight is the important factor than the SS still compares to the gt500 better than the 'vette. It's stupid to compare the gt500 to the vette because it's a totally different class of vehicle and it's also stupid to compare it to the SS because there is already a direct competitor for it in the lineup. That is the reason the z28 is coming.

The Ford engine upgrade was a response to the Camaro out performing the Mustang on the track and in sales. It was announced almost 18 months early at the direct expense of every Ford Dealer in the country slowing Mustang sales while buyers HOPEFULLY waited for the new 5.0. The Z28 has been engineered for years. It was shelved do to GM financial issues or it would already have been in show rooms.

As for weight, your light weight WRX is fast and handles so well in large part to the curb weight being so low. Having watched the factory supported T2 WRX Sti run so well against the heavier vehicles in the T2 class we know that the light weight was a major factor in track success. Does AWD help of course. Does being lighter than the other cars on the track help -- we'll ask the guys that got beat the last two years by the Pontiac Solstice in T2. On some very tight tracks the T2 Solstice leaders were running the same speeds as the T1 Vettes.

Moving mass around a road course means fighting for every ounce of weight you can save. Anyone that doesn't undesrtand that would have to be...
On the Camaro5 forum we like to treat people with respect even when we disagree with the so I will stop here.

[meanmike]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

That's your self-determined measurement for fanboy-ism. I subscribe to the "Do they always post anti-Camaro" theory to determine what a Mustang/whatever fanboy is.

I can that.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The Ford engine upgrade was a response to the Camaro out performing the Mustang on the track and in sales. It was announced almost 18 months early at the direct expense of every Ford Dealer in the country slowing Mustang sales while buyers HOPEFULLY waited for the new 5.0. The Z28 has been engineered for years. It was shelved do to GM financial issues or it would already have been in show rooms.

As for weight, your light weight WRX is fast and handles so well in large part to the curb weight being so low. Having watched the factory supported T2 WRX Sti run so well against the heavier vehicles in the T2 class we know that the light weight was a major factor in track success. Does AWD help of course. Does being lighter than the other cars on the track help -- we'll ask the guys that got beat the last two years by the Pontiac Solstice in T2. On some very tight tracks the T2 Solstice leaders were running the same speeds as the T1 Vettes.

Moving mass around a road course means fighting for every ounce of weight you can save. Anyone that doesn't undesrtand that would have to be...
On the Camaro5 forum we like to treat people with respect even when we disagree with the so I will stop here.

I know the inherent advantages of lower curb weight, but that does not make weight one of the major factors in which cars should be compared to each other. Yeah, ok a solstice is in the same weight class as a base civic. Does that mean people are going to cross-shop a solstice and a civic? Very unlikely. For the cars to be comparable and the weight to even be important, the most basic characteristics of the vehicles need to be similar. That is the reason for the vehicle "class." it means the vehicles in the same "class" are comparable. If it were just about weight and money, again we would be comparing cars that are nothing alike. I understand your point, but for the intents and purposes of the typical buyer, weight is not a major factor in comparison. I just find it sad and totally illogical on both sides that this is the course of this discussion

<GT500 comparison with SS doesn't make sense (reasons being, power and performance difference)
>GT500 should be compared with corvette instead (reasons being price)
<GT500 comparison with corvette doesn't makes sense (reasons being physical characteristics and vehicle class)
>GT500 should be compared with corvette (reason being Ford doesn't have something to compare to the vette otherwise)

It is stupid to compare the gt500 with either the SS or the Corvette because it is a different class of vehicle than both. They have very different, major characteristics, much like an apple and an orange (!!!). Your statement about the z28 only furthers my point. It has not been in the works since before the gt500, it was in the works to compete with the gt500 because GM has nothing to compete directly with the gt500, just like Ford has nothing to compete directly with the corvette.

***** This is my opinion. I respect that we all have our own opinions and we all have different views of what is important in a vehicle. However, I do think it is extremism on both sides if anyone honestly thinks it makes sense to

A. Compare the performance of two cars that have a 100+hp deficit and a major price gap(GT500 vs SS)
B. Compare the performance of a sports car to a muscle car.

[jrc1122]

Yeah but bottom line it is a trim level of a MUSTANG--- which is the main/ direct competitor of the Camaro.

Just because it has a slightly bigger engine (compared to the GT) and a Supercharger, doesn't automatically take it out of the equation.

It may not be an even comparison because of the heafty price tag, but it is most definitely a comparable car.. People have been doing it for decades.

And people most definitely cross shop the two. Many people on message boards, ask the question. Should I modify my Camaro or GT, or should I get the a GT500. The cars themselves are comparable

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The big factor in car comparisons is WEIGHT. The base Corvette is 3,200 pounds. The base Mustang GT is 3,605. The CTS-V weighs in at 4,255. From this perspective comparing a Mustang to a Vette makes sense at 400 pounds of difference as opposed to over 600 pounds. Price wise the Mustang would be closer to a base Vette than a CTS-V. It doesn't matter as people will compare anything they choose to compare because there are Ford guys and Chevy guys. Here is a link to a Chevy Guy and a Supercar Build. What should we compare it too?

NFL Player Eric Berry's Camaro Supercar Build

When making any comparison's, they should be between two stock vehicles to make it fair. That is what I have done since both my Camaro SS and Mustang 5.0 remained stock the entire time I drove them. I know I have enough time now behind the wheel of my Mustang to give the most accurate review between the two so far. The pedders group who post here have driven heavily modified Camaro's and Mustang's and is commenting on them both here making comparisons and such along with track info. That is great for them since they are selling their performance enhancing products and want to be on the side of both companies since they sell products for both. That is all fine and dandy however all the comments from such company are padded to please both and to put down both equally whichever way possible. Similar to a moderate in politics who may have chosen a side but chooses to pretend not to have when being asked basic poll questions. So we get the basic answer to the question which is better between the SS and the 5.0 in being weight vs IRS. My review will go into far more detail than any so far, and will be posted in this forum first since this is my forum of choice. If the thread gets derailed or merged with this Mustang Mega thread, then I will leave this forum peacefully and become a part of another. I will be tough on both cars equally...Peace

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/index.html

http://musclemustangfastfords.automo...out/index.html

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2010/0...d-mustang.html

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...y-gt500kr.html

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...1114933&page=3

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...risons/1760457

http://www.moddedmustangs.com/2007-s...-corvette.html

http://www.dynoperformance.com/artic...?article_id=28

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/photo...hp/photo/53494

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...1760457?page=2

That wasn't hard to disprove.

Amazing. I wanted to do that also but didnt want to take the time.

Good job...

[zero]

Originally Posted by Supermans

When making any comparison's, they should be between two stock vehicles to make it fair. That is what I have done since both my Camaro SS and Mustang 5.0 remained stock the entire time I drove them. I know I have enough time now behind the wheel of my Mustang to give the most accurate review between the two so far. The pedders group who post here have driven heavily modified Camaro's and Mustang's and is commenting on them both here making comparisons and such along with track info. That is great for them since they are selling their performance enhancing products and want to be on the side of both companies since they sell products for both. That is all fine and dandy however all the comments from such company are padded to please both and to put down both equally whichever way possible. Similar to a moderate in politics who may have chosen a side but chooses to pretend not to have when being asked basic poll questions. So we get the basic answer to the question which is better between the SS and the 5.0 in being weight vs IRS. My review will go into far more detail than any so far, and will be posted in this forum first since this is my forum of choice. If the thread gets derailed or merged with this Mustang Mega thread, then I will leave this forum peacefully and become a part of another. I will be tough on both cars equally...Peace

Good post, your right as they have to please both sides and being unbiased or not this is a camaro forum so..enuff said.

looking forward to reading your review as all the others ones here from camaro owners were pure entertainment if you know what I mean..lol

[The_Blur]

Ford guys: Your 2010 Camaro SS is not a fair contest with a 2009 Mustang GT. Wait till we come out with something to beat you again!

Camaro guys: It looks like your new 4.6L horsepower bump leaves us in the lead.


It is amazing how things change and stay the same.


Ford guys: Let's compare our GT500 to your SS so that we can have a decisive win.

Camaro guys: Wouldn't you rather discuss being a driver's race with the Camaro using your new 5.0L?

Ford guys: That's not fair. You can't catch the amazing 5.0L! Let's compare our GT500 to a 1986 Corvette. :upset:




This is getting ridiculous. You should compare cars based on a couple of scenarios: cross-shopped cars and unpredictable outcomes. The idea of comparing cross-shopped cars is to compare cars that shoppers who are not car enthusiasts will compare. If 80% of pony car buyers look at Mustangs and Camaros but not Corvettes, then we should compare Mustangs and Camaros. Including Corvettes would be pointless. The other approach would be to compare cars based on unpredictable outcomes. For instance, comparing a heavily modified 2005 Cobalt SS supercharged to a 2010 Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 AWD would result in the expected outcome of a Lamborghini winning. The idea of such a discussion would be to prove that a Cobalt SS supercharged could, at least in theory but preferably in practice, defeat a stock Murcielago under certain circumstances. Proving the obvious is a waste of time and space on this forum.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The big factor in car comparisons is WEIGHT. The base Corvette is 3,200 pounds. The base Mustang GT is 3,605. The CTS-V weighs in at 4,255. From this perspective comparing a Mustang to a Vette makes sense at 400 pounds of difference as opposed to over 600 pounds. Price wise the Mustang would be closer to a base Vette than a CTS-V. It doesn't matter as people will compare anything they choose to compare because there are Ford guys and Chevy guys. Here is a link to a Chevy Guy and a Supercar Build. What should we compare it too?

NFL Player Eric Berry's Camaro Supercar Build

Isn't the GT500 more like 3800 pounds? Also there is a LOT more to a comparison than simply weight. You are comparing a 2 seat dedicated sports car, to a 4 seat sports coupe.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Stew

Isn't the GT500 more like 3800 pounds? Also there is a LOT more to a comparison than simply weight. You are comparing a 2 seat dedicated sports car, to a 4 seat sports coupe.

As I wrote in my original post "It doesn't matter as people will compare anything they choose to compare because there are Ford guys and Chevy guys."

My Camaro and my Mustang BOTH run laps FASTER than a Z06 Vette. I'll compare BOTH four seaters to the TWO seat Vette all day long. They are BOTH heavier. BOTH are in the same Price Range as the Z06.

What appears to be lost in this thread is there are NO RIGHT ANSWERS. There are ONLY opinions. The SCCA puts light and heavy cars in the same class. They put fours bangers in with V8s. They have pages and pages of rules and regulations about car classes. Go to an SCCA event and you will hear drivers debate the rules and classes just like you read in this thread.