Big 3 Loan Failed to Pass - Congress voting...Not promising.

[camaro5]

Late Thursday evening, the U.S. automaker bailout bill failed to pass through the Senate. The legislation is dead and there are no plans for another bill to go through the process until the end of the year. To quote Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, this will be "a very, very bad Christmas" for many Americans.

Over the past day, Senators have tried to resolve the House-approved bill so it could pass Senate Republican muster, but reports suggest that the UAW was unwilling to accept GOP demands that workers agree to parity in pay and benefits.

News of the failed bill has already spread to markets across the Pacific, with the Nikkei index nose-diving over 6%. Things on this side of the world are bound to be worse when trading on the New York Stock Exchange begins tomorrow.

According to reports, General Motors has got bankruptcy and restructuring advisors on speed-dial in preparation for the bad news and Chrysler has already retained CH11 counsel.

Countless economists and industry analysts are warning that if any one of the Detroit 3 goes under, it will spell disaster for an economy already suffering in a recession.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/s...maker-bailout/

[gunslinger]

I don't even know what to say....

I was excited last night that the House passed the bill, but this news is truly depressing.

From my coworkers who don't understand that the Big 3 make cars worth purchasing (not to mention buying American which keeps money in OUR country, a whole different post...) to senators like Shelby from Alabama...

It is truly a disgusting situation. Our Senators can't loan the largest manufacturing sector JUST 14 Billion dollars while AIG asks for ANOTHER 10 Billion and will probably get it.

Sure, there is the whole Free Market idea of letting companies that made poor decisions go out of business (I am a business major), but to let a sector fail that could be important to our national security.... Is F'ing ridiculous. What are we going to do if we get in a 'tiff with Japan? Ask them to make out tanks and military vehicles!

We, as a nation, cannot survive on a service economy alone... What happens when the sh** hits the fan and we need to actually manufacture a product?

Can an investment banker, or insurance agent manufacture a piece of machinery that could protect our nation or prevent a world war? My guess is NO!

What happened to America?

We have always been a car culture, and to see it die because of some greedy UAW reps or senators is truly a travesty...

I am going to take my 4th Gen Camaro and find myself a little shack in the middle of the Mojave desert and start a new life for myself without all the BS that plaques the leadership in this country...

I am very upset and these words are only the tip of the iceberg on how I truly feel...

[fastfret7]

Bettie Page died, GM to fall, my house isn't worth sh*t. What is going on?!?!?

[BigTrap1967]

[QUOTE=DGthe3;215111]alright, I have to take my mod hat off for a minute or two.

Just when I was starting to have some faith in the UAW and the US Government, they both pull this. WTF is wrong with these people? All this bull about not wasting tax payers money is a total crock. They have given over 10x what was proposed for GM and Chrysler to AIG alone. It makes me sick. And the UAW. I don't think they realize that 0 benefits are a whole worse than reduced pay. This is all a damm game to these people, everyone -union, gov, corporations, reporters, hell even all us on forums and blogs. But there are millions of jobs on the line, hundreds of billions (trillion+?) of dollars worth of revenue that could be lost. Companies that built the American dream. That built the arsenal of democracy in WWII. That made America the country that it is. They are on the brink of annihilation because of the laws made (or not made) by politicians over the last 30 years, and deals that the unions have forced over the last 70 years, by the automakers that realized they were in trouble 10 years too late, and by consumers who refuse to buy a new Chevy Malibu because they owned an AMC Gremlin in the 80's and it was a POS, and thus every american car today is crap.

But the management at the big 3 is incompetent!
And the sub-prime mortgage lenders were geniuses? Oh wait, they triggered the avalanche.

But it will cost the tax payers too much
Failure of the big three, including ch11 -not to mention ch7, will cost tax payers a hell of a lot more than any loan will. A loan will 'cost' the taxpayers about -$1B, after interest is payed. Compare that to 200B for pension/healthcare, and much more than that in lost income.

They don't buid cars that people want
No, people want the cars they just can't get credit to buy them.


Also, does anyone here have any idea how many congressmen/senators who opposed to this bill have a foreign owned car, engine, or transmission plant in their state? I'm gonna guess the percentage is pretty high but I don't know.

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest things that I've seen in my 23 years on this earth. Based on actions of the last year - mortgages, then credit crunch, now this, and the reaction (or inaction) by the government (both dem and rep), I'd almost say that America deserves to fail as a nation. If so many people can be so stupid, in so many areas, then your nation no longer deserves the power and greatness that it built up over the decades and centuries. Problem is, that would bring down about a half dozen other developed nations, including Canada. And I don't feel like learning Chinese.

I'm done now.
back to being a moderator[/QUOTE PREACH BROTHER!!!:flag2:

[Emher]

I know that you know how I angry I was at Saab being up for sale. That is nothing, nothing I say, to how I angry I am this complete load of crap. Remind me to get back at the UAW if I ever get the chance.

[ZombieEatsYou]

DJI futures down 264 as of 0615 EST. So it begins...

[GEARHEAD]

IMO the bailout being rejected is the best thing that can happen to GM. The company will have to reform, new management will be put into place that doesn't make millions of dollars per person, the UAW will cease to exist in all GM plants, wages will be cut to a reasonable level, and everybody's Camaro's will be less expensive in the future. GM employees will now see that the UAW doesn't care about their jobs. As soon as bankruptcy is filed the union contract is over and there will be a line of people outside the GM facilities more than happy to work for $20 an hour. It would be nice if high school kids can once again afford to go out and buy a new Camaro like back in the muscle car's heyday.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

This failure will crash the market tomorrow. We're looking at the worst possible situation here—no Detroit automakers, economic meltdown for Western democracies, possible Greater Depression, US federal budget shrinking for future years.

You're jumping the gun here with this prediction. A bankruptcy of GM will do no such thing. A bankruptcy would allow for a restructuring of the union which at the moment is not happening since they aren't budging on even simple terms that are necessary in order to keep paying those retiree benefits along with their own health insurance and salary..

What it will do is allow for a restructuring where the Government money goes towards the retirees (yes this will happen, 14 billion going towards them would be enough for quite awhile and I don't have a problem with the Government helping the retirees since they do deserve it for their hard work up until the pass on to the next life) while GM can get itself out from what has caused this problem in the first place... The only way for legacy costs to disappear is to go into bankruptcy. And that my friend is why US cars cost $3 - $4 grand more than in parts than Toyota's... Going bankrupt will ensure that the company starts making a profit selling cars in the US without the Government being in total control of what kind of cars they can build.. A bailout with tons and tons of pork and even more government control is going to be the death of V8 Camaro's down the road and SUV's..

Now that gas prices are lower, once the economy rebounds which it always does, more people will go out and decide it is time for a new car out of pleasure and not just necessity. I bet a year from now we are all going to be driving our Camaro's and GM would be in a much better situation after filing for bankruptcy than they are in now.. Sure it will be very difficult in the short term and many jobs will be lost. However people need jobs and new ones will be created as there are always people looking for jobs.

If Barack nationalizes health care and cuts the salaries of Doctor's and Pharmacists in half, they won't be too happy about it at first but what would be their alternative since the people no longer are the ones paying... Yes you would have a whole bunch of Doctors protesting but sure enough, they will have to take the pay cuts and go back to work as the Government doesn't budge on policy once it is mandated. I am totally against Nationalizing health care by the way for many reasons...As I am against nationalizing the auto industry..

Let's just pray that whatever happens, that America comes first..And when I mean America I mean We the People, not the Goverment.. Remember that the Constitution was written in such a way to limit Government control over the people.. Why do so many of you people want to give that up and allow the Government to control what type of car you buy and how much you pay for it..Think about it..

Originally Posted by GEARHEAD

IMO the bailout being rejected is the best thing that can happen to GM. The company will have to reform, new management will be put into place that doesn't make millions of dollars per person, the UAW will cease to exist in all GM plants, wages will be cut to a reasonable level, and everybody's Camaro's will be less expensive in the future. GM employees will now see that the UAW doesn't care about their jobs. As soon as bankruptcy is filed the union contract is over and there will be a line of people outside the GM facilities more than happy to work for $20 an hour. It would be nice if high school kids can once again afford to go out and buy a new Camaro like back in the muscle car's heyday.

I totally agree with you on this one..

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest things that I've seen in my 23 years on this earth. Based on actions of the last year - mortgages, then credit crunch, now this, and the reaction (or inaction) by the government (both dem and rep), I'd almost say that America deserves to fail as a nation. If so many people can be so stupid, in so many areas, then your nation no longer deserves the power and greatness that it built up over the decades and centuries. Problem is, that would bring down about a half dozen other developed nations, including Canada. And I don't feel like learning Chinese.

I'm done now.
back to being a moderator

Are you attributing Government failure and bureaucracy to "the nation" or "the people"? I guess I partially agree with you in that "We the people" did vote most of these fools into office (appointed judges and secretaries being the only ones out of our control including the Secretary of the Treasury). I do disagree that as a nation, we no longer deserve the power and the greatness as at least half of the nation voted against these morons in office. America is still the greatest country on the planet and our resilience will shine thru once this economic turmoil is resolved. Remember that since half of America voted the other way, it does not take much to get people into office to remedy the situation. Remember when Ronald Reagan came into office after the malaise we were all in during the Jimmy Carter years? Trust me extreme environmentalist liberalism (Michael Moore and Al Gore types) are the ones that have caused a lot of these problems the automakers are facing today. In two years, "We the People" will hand over control back to conservatives if there are as many problems then as there are now with a Democrat controlled House and Senate.. I still have faith in America and I hope I can still call it the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave in four years..

[MerF]

I'm simply appalled, but holding my breath to see what today brings.

[dayvedayve]

I actully side with the UAW partly. Why should the workers on the line agree to get paycuts. The call to cut salaries should have been across the board. Let every employee take a hit for the team, not just the grunts.

[MerF]

Originally Posted by dayvedayve

I actully side with the UAW partly. Why should the workers on the line agree to get paycuts. The call to cut salaries should have been across the board. Let every employee take a hit for the team, not just the grunts.

I'm pretty sure that's not a problem for non-Union eomployees. Not to mention the non-Union folks probably already make 25% less (or more) to begin with.

I'm not in the factory so I can not be remotely considered a source on the matter, but that's the way I see it from the outside.

[sid99]

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by sid99

We live in a free market for a reason.. Restructuring needs to occur without the Government officials who don't know squat about cars or the auto industry being put in charge of it and mandating regulations and what not to build etc..Most people don't want hybrids, that is why they don't sell.. The Government should NOT be taxing my V8's to hell and then throw at me incentives to buy a car I don't want.. This is what will happen with Government control of the auto industry.. The government should help out those who need it after a bankruptcy and they will, including taking care of retiree benefits. The union will at least get that out of the government when it is all done.. However a new union with new rules needs to be created after a bankruptcy, one with all the nonsense taken out which has helped contribute to GM's demise..

[Tran]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest things that I've seen in my 23 years on this earth. Based on actions of the last year - mortgages, then credit crunch, now this, and the reaction (or inaction) by the government (both dem and rep), I'd almost say that America deserves to fail as a nation. If so many people can be so stupid, in so many areas, then your nation no longer deserves the power and greatness that it built up over the decades and centuries. Problem is, that would bring down about a half dozen other developed nations, including Canada. And I don't feel like learning Chinese.

I'm done now.
back to being a moderator

I couldn't agree with this more, sad as it is...